Cirrus Icon Development

   This aspect of the debate seems to be getting bogged down a bit now.  The acid test is and will remain 'on the water'.  I read the theoretical stuff as well but my maths is now too poor to follow every detail  (use it or lose it).... therefore I read the descriptions and quickly move to conclusions and summaries more often than not now.  I've used many carbon masts, wing masts, including the square back Tasar ones, camber inducers and a whole variety of 'stick' masts over the years.  

Modern over-rotational wing masts are in fact light, simple to use and effective.  They add a little complication but some cost and have been largely ignored on monohulls here as 'stick' evolution has been very fast in recent years.  In parallel though wing masts have also been refined and developed but many builders and classes have not recently explored the benefits and implications yet.  Sometimes our accepted views need to be challenged and if the case is proven can become more mainstream.

In relation to Icon, as with the NSs, the wing mast works.  It works very well with these rigs and appears to offer a worthwhile advantage in Oz and here in our initial tests.  If it did not well then it would be changed to a slimline stick for Icon  - but this obvious alternative does not look favoured by testing so far.   The only very clear non-cost advantage of 'stick' I can see would be if we were to put a third sail on the boat as the arrangements for 'stick' + asymetric are then much simpler.  Our plan for Icon however is to keep close to the NS 2-sail model for sound commercial reasons.    

Personally I'm not going to defend 'wing' over 'stick'  or even vice versa - we'll let other testers have their say first.  To my more simple mind the case is simply one of seeing if the benefits of 'wing' clearly outweight the extra cost in a production boat.   Sails ? - we we can tweak them in all sorts of ways and will continue to do so .... probably well beyond the production of hull tooling. 

Mike L.

Mike L   

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blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Cirrus Icon Development Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 10:14am
	This aspect of the debate seems to be getting bogged down a bit now. The acid test is and will remain 'on the water'. I read the theoretical stuff as well but my maths is now too poor to follow every detail (use it or lose it).... therefore I read the descriptions and quickly move to conclusions and summaries more often than not now. I've used many carbon masts, wing masts, including the square back Tasar ones, camber inducers and a whole variety of 'stick' masts over the years. Modern over-rotational wing masts are in fact light, simple to use and effective. They add a little complication but some cost and have been largely ignored on monohulls here as 'stick' evolution has been very fast in recent years. In parallel though wing masts have also been refined and developed but many builders and classes have not recently explored the benefits and implications yet. Sometimes our accepted views need to be challenged and if the case is proven can become more mainstream. In relation to Icon, as with the NSs, the wing mast works. It works very well with these rigs and appears to offer a worthwhile advantage in Oz and here in our initial tests. If it did not well then it would be changed to a slimline stick for Icon - but this obvious alternative does not look favoured by testing so far. The only very clear non-cost advantage of 'stick' I can see would be if we were to put a third sail on the boat as the arrangements for 'stick' + asymetric are then much simpler. Our plan for Icon however is to keep close to the NS 2-sail model for sound commercial reasons. Personally I'm not going to defend 'wing' over 'stick' or even vice versa - we'll let other testers have their say first. To my more simple mind the case is simply one of seeing if the benefits of 'wing' clearly outweight the extra cost in a production boat. Sails ? - we we can tweak them in all sorts of ways and will continue to do so .... probably well beyond the production of hull tooling. Mike L. Mike L

lionel rigby Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Newbie Joined: 30 Nov 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote lionel rigby Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 4:34pm
	Hi Mike, I saw the Icon last week at the show and I think it is a fine looking boat and the price makes it really good value for money. I have had the pleasure of sailing Peaky's, over a year ago in practically no wind, but when the breeze filled in for a short while it gave a very nice ride. I'm a Tasar man and quite accept a dagger board man, I think it is a simple process and certainly suitable for sailing off a beach environment, if you remember to ensure it is progressivley lifted as you come ashore. The Tasar does have a sacrificial piece of foam which will absorb some of the shock if,& I have, hit something. The rudder on the Tasar is a lifting type and will kick up when it hits anything so no problems with that. Your configuration of mast and sail looked good, though I wonder if you will struggle to get much kicker affect with such a heavy looking section mast. I suppose you will do all your depowering with the down haul and spillage from the top of the sail. The concept and value is certainly a better replacement for anyone looking for a 2 sail boat than anything else on the market. Frank Bethwaite certainly trialled an assy spinnaker on a Tasar but came to the conclusion that there would be very little benefit sailing down wind to offset the extra weight of a wet kite when beating up wind, plus the extra cost of a stiffer and different mast that would be needed, so on his advice the concept was quietly forgotten and I suppose the same thinking goes with the NS14. I think your boat is almost 100% right as it is. It looks right as it is. Just get some good sailors sailing it and hopefully get some good feedback from them. As many others have said the Ozzies have been playing around with NS14s for years and think that it is now probably fully developed. I note that you advise a handicap of 1025ish If that is the case then I think you will have the biggest bandit boat of all time on your hands, and then you will sell them like hot cakes.
	Golden Oldie

blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 5:08pm
	Hi Lionel Thanks for the input - the NS dagger appears to be a fair bit longer than the one we sailed with in Tasars and the NS plate case really is 'no compromise'. The concept of a Tasar board and case has not been completely discounted - it is really something we want others to try out with the differing configurations. It is just too easy to specify for yourself and to be successful we have to do it for the majority. Handicaps ! Bloody subject ..... you get flamed whichever way you go as a builder. My gut feel is that it will be possible to sail it between a Tasar and say a Merlin but we do not know the impact of the foil changes proposed yet. So it is all a bit of guesswork until we have real numbers. I'm arranging to have a couple of good merlins to 'race' against very soon hopefully and should then be able to give you a more informed view then. I like the idea of Icon selling well of course but phoney handicap numbers would not last very long today - so frankly not worth the bullsh*tting. Lets get several good regular club sailors in it first and let them clock up plenty of races but I'm staying out of it for formal racing until they establish some proper numbers. Are you going to Falmouth Week again this year ? We plan to go again and although I will probably be racing something else we might bring an Icon down for people to try. Oh ... and no white flags please this year Falmouth ! Mike L.

lionel rigby Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Newbie Joined: 30 Nov 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote lionel rigby Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 5:19pm
	Hi Mike, Yes hopefully doing Falmouth week again. I think that the RC have realised the error of their white flag ways and no doubt there should be a different shorten course system used this year. It will be good if you do have an Icon at Falmouth as I would like to try it again. We will be at the Beastie on Sunday for our first outing this year, so look forward to seeing you there. My ambition there this year will be to start on time and not about 5 mins late like last year! Too busy talking, thinking the race was delayed, then I wondered what all those boats were doing sailing.
	Golden Oldie

RS400atC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011	Post Options Post Reply Quote RS400atC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 5:26pm
	Handicap of 1025? So that sort of says the kite on an RS400 is worth 75 points at least? OTOH comparing like with (sort of Like) you'll need to be way ahead of Ent's and certain other 2 sail boats. How does the wing mast compare in terms of weight aloft against a carbon pole or RS400 cumulus? What's Falmouth wk like as a dinghy racing holiday BTW?

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 5:58pm
	In aluminium the wing mast is a little lighter per meter than a cumulus section. The Icon mast is also a bit shorter than a 400 one, so the saving is about a kilo. The sails are actually 200 size, so maybe the kite is worth -25! ;)

lionel rigby Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Newbie Joined: 30 Nov 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote lionel rigby Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 6:08pm
	Falmouth Week has been going for years and now has a seperate dinghy section, divided into different fleets. Ther is a fleet for assyms and they have their own course. I think that there may have been 3 RS400 last year. The racing is all run from Restronguet SC and comprises 2 races a day, held in the area opposite the SC. IMO the race lengths are too short at times and don't allow the handicapd to work that well. On the most suitable day of the week there is a long distance race, incorporating most of the Carrick Roads. Last year the wind for that race was very light and it took us well over 2hrs to finish. In fact it was so slow that it became boring. In 2008 it was windier and we had some fantastic planing. The course for this race is such that you get practically every point of sailing imaginable. Check out their web site - falmouth week. There is quite a lot going on in the evenings but it is all based in Falmouth which is a few miles away from Restronguet.
	Golden Oldie

nathan Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 26 Apr 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 143	Post Options Post Reply Quote nathan Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 7:00pm
	Speed in between a Merlin and a Tasar? 1008- 1023 difference of 15 points. Thats approx 30 seconds an hour. So a all new, 30 years more development than a Tasar, gives you a boat that is about 15 seconds an hour quicker?? I agree parts of the Tasar are outdated, but where has the benefit gone of all this progress?? Speed isnt everything, but you have to offer some benefit....

blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 10 at 7:23pm
	And the alternative it to suggest that the Merlin is .. well slower even equipped with a Spinnaker ? When the Tasar was introduced it had a similar handicap to the Merlin - that was 35 years ago. Merlins have got faster - and are now about 1008 now after the bigf recent adjustment. The Tasar has remained ralatively static so the Merlin has managed at best to improve by 15 in all these years. Icon is a very simple boat - simpler obviusly than the 3 sail Merlin but also simpler and less complex than even the Tasar - now a distant cousin. The point of Icon is ease of use - hence moves to a centreboard and other changes from the prototypes coupled to a modest cost but good specification. It is not about speed but we do want to avoid a sluggish boat. There are plenty of much faster boats and most are more complex and/or much more expensive - that is the point. Anyway - Like Peaky I'm going to try and duck away from the forum now and let things ride along - at least until we have more news and more water time. 30 minutes on the water stuff .... really is worth a lot of keyboard time. But thanks for all the input so far - we do listen. Those who have expresed an interest on joining the 'Icon steering Group' - we will be in touch to you directly in about 2-3 weeks. Might post a few pics as we go along though ;-) Mike L.

blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Mar 10 at 8:54pm
	A few photos - North sail test 17-3-10