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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Slippery Jim

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Slippery Jim

many owners of asymmetric spi boats start talking about not being "tactical" enough,

The only time I've ever seen the phrase used in that context was in Bethwaite!

I've heard it from the horse's mouth and his son's (face to face) but also elsewhere, from laser2000 and (ironically) laser4000 sailors and not even in the english language. the choice of phrase is typically bethwaite, but also economical. Yes i do own his book, but there also might even be an element of truth in it too.  Actually, I think once you try to be objective about certain classes (and this might not please the owners of certain boats), there are some which are "efficient" in this context on the water but many that aren't, but which despite that still have a large following. The simple question with the complex answer is why?

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but as an RS400 sailor, I find the tactical aspects of the downwind legs tactically demanding and enjoyable. Unless it's blowing dogs off chains, a downwind leg where you don't have choices to make about gybing is a huge disappointment. Sailing in a fleet where you can only break out of the procession upwind seems dull by comparison.

Many boats change places downwind, that's good racing imho. But then I'm not worried about yardstick racing, I prefer to race boat against equal boat. The tactics of racing against different boats (e.g. Merlins) can also make you think.
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Slippery Jim

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Slippery Jim

many owners of asymmetric spi boats start talking about not being "tactical" enough,

The only time I've ever seen the phrase used in that context was in Bethwaite!

I've heard it from the horse's mouth and his son's (face to face) but also elsewhere, from laser2000 and (ironically) laser4000 sailors and not even in the english language. the choice of phrase is typically bethwaite, but also economical. Yes i do own his book, but there also might even be an element of truth in it too.  Actually, I think once you try to be objective about certain classes (and this might not please the owners of certain boats), there are some which are "efficient" in this context on the water but many that aren't, but which despite that still have a large following. The simple question with the complex answer is why?

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but as an RS400 sailor, I find the tactical aspects of the downwind legs tactically demanding and enjoyable. Unless it's blowing dogs off chains, a downwind leg where you don't have choices to make about gybing is a huge disappointment. Sailing in a fleet where you can only break out of the procession upwind seems dull by comparison.

Many boats change places downwind, that's good racing imho. But then I'm not worried about yardstick racing, I prefer to race boat against equal boat. The tactics of racing against different boats (e.g. Merlins) can also make you think.

ok can's open, worms are wriggling. That was not my point. By the way, the classes I am talking about are precisely those where there is a procession upwind and downwind and (nearly) nothing ever changes. The reason why I chose handicap racing as an example is that this is where you really notice the differences in boat performance.

As for tactics that you can apply in a practical sense, these will vary from class to class. What really cooks my noodle for example, is racing against an FD and trying to sail as deep as I dare whilst trying to keep pressure in the kite. AND placing the gybes right for the next surge. Whilst it's crew is scanning to keep on the front end of the gust, I'm sailing out of one and looking to land in another, so I'm looking further. That's just an example.



Edited by Slippery Jim
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skslr View Drop Down
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Posts: 139 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 1:53pm

I kind of understand that light weight boats with big kites and whatever drag curve suffer less downwind than not-so-light boats with small kites at low windspeeds.

So VMG while travelling with sails filled maybe o.k. in relation to the yardstick value.

But the VMG loss while setting/hoisting/gybing/filling a kite will be a problem at low windspeeds even for perfect crews especially in low PY boats.

Typical "pond" expample is a Finn-Dinghy drifting straight down to the leeward mark thanks to its momentum while the crew on an light weight asym. dinghy desperately heads up waiting for a little gust to fill the kite and get going again ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 2:17pm

The problem with the Bethwaite designing-by-numbers approach is that (on its own) it over simplifies design.  The 200 and 400 don't work according to the Bethwaite ratios, but I'm sure LDC are glad they made them. The 59er, on the other hand, fits the ratio criteria perfectly, but is so over canvassed that it is unsuitable for round the cans courses.

Anyhow, the Icon isn't a skiff.  As I see it, it aims to deliver the best pure sailing experience for a given level of simplicity and practicality.  Simple enough to be your first boat, rewarding enough to be your last.
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by skslr

I kind of understand that light weight boats with big kites and whatever drag curve suffer less downwind than not-so-light boats with small kites at low windspeeds.

So VMG while travelling with sails filled maybe o.k. in relation to the yardstick value.

But the VMG loss while setting/hoisting/gybing/filling a kite will be a problem at low windspeeds even for perfect crews especially in low PY boats.

Typical "pond" expample is a Finn-Dinghy drifting straight down to the leeward mark thanks to its momentum while the crew on an light weight asym. dinghy desperately heads up waiting for a little gust to fill the kite and get going again ...

Yeah, Absolutely. I didn't want to talk about light winds, but you hit the nail on the head skslr!
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The problem with the Bethwaite designing-by-numbers approach is that (on its own) it over simplifies design.  ..... The 59er, on the other hand, fits the ratio criteria perfectly, but is so over canvassed that it is unsuitable for round the cans courses.

Actually, Frank B. didn't design the 59er by numbers. Julian didn't do the 49er that way either, neither did the 29er come about by a mathematical approach.

Most of it was "cut and try". In fact, to date, as far as I know, there's no mathematical, ex post facto explanation as to why all of those hulls have a linear drag curve.

The talk and research about critical ratios, sail area/WSA, sail area/total weight and so on, only came about after having built the boats and wondering why the Tasar with an asymmetric spinnaker had a massive  falloff in VMG in light-to medium winds.

I also agree with you that you ain't going to be producing a skiff, although it'll look good and many people will enjoy it.

 
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 10 at 8:08pm
Rupert said .... Nice looking boat, but the colour scheme makes it look a little like a jacuzzi.


Well Rupert our sensitive side could have come to the fore .... but actually we agree anyway ........... so you should be very glad to hear that the one at the show will not be in the 'Jacuzzi'  colour scheme..... it will be nice and understated with the foredeck now in resplendent 'Platimum White'  identical to the main hull colour and the non slip areas on the sidedecks will be in light grey. 

Well that one was easy to sort out !  Anything else you would like ?

Mike L.     
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 10 at 8:31pm

Should look much better thanks! Mind you, some of the Lightnings I've seen since joining the fleet have looked like avacardo bathroom suites, so a jacuzzi could be seen as posh!

Looking forward to seeing the boat in the flesh, even if my boat buying tends towards the low hundreds, so new boats will be out. Would be great for a new 2 sail boat to make its mark. Often thought that a stripped out lightwight Merlin would be good as a 2 sailer, and this seems close to that idea.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 10 at 9:34pm
Rupert

in 2 sail format it is a bit like a MR but perhaps with less constraints - ie no vestige of planking.  We have kept the wing mast relatively short and sail square top.  The clear objective is to keep the centre of effort reasonably low and plane upwind with regular people. but also  to  use a hull form that will ensure it is plenty fast enough offwind - in both breeze and in the light stuff.  A tough target but possible.  We wil also test the carbon 'stick' route soon.

If you have sailed a Tasar in decent breeze or tight reached an MR under 2-sails you have some idea of what Icon will be like in breeze.   There are lots of decisions still to be made and this will be done very quickly now.  The aim is to be able to offer a firm package very soon and deliver boats as early as late Spring if needed, but only when Icon is completely sorted and only then  -  this should be is possible as much was already sorted before the decison to show a few photos last week  

There is already an 'advisory group'  (formed within 3 days of the photos - thank you guys ) who will help us and can now give us much appreciated feedback - you can just get too close to these things we find !

So if you really really like Avocado we can do it .... er well maybe not !

Mike L.
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 10 at 7:33pm
Rupert / Peaky et al

We think 'Vanilla' works better as well ....  happy now ? Now only available in same  - unless you insist of course.  This hull for the show then ....



 
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