Cirrus Icon Development

Originally posted by Slippery Jim But a 59er without a kite is like an RS800 without a kite... Just don´t go there... It´s like having ripe cherries without er... plucking them (if you know the old rhyme )

59er with a kite was such an overwhelming success tho
wasn't it. A 59er without a kite might not be such a
great package to you, but for all the inland lakes and
rivers it just might be perfect.

Centreboard, high weight carrying, powerful sails,
flexitop mast.

I'd buy it.

Im not sure a + or T rudder is particularly suited to this kind of boat. Seems like a huge amount of trouble on small, shallow waters.

I've followed this thread.  Having raced a N12, Lark, Taser and now a B14 I would say that trying to introduce a new double handed, two sail class will be failure.

You will have to attract N12/Tasar/Enterprise/Firefly owners who already have good class racing.   Yes, the Icon may have a slightly better hull/rig/weight but it'll not be enough.

There was a new one design Merlin Rocket recently.   I can't remember its name.  How is that class doing ?  I would guess, not too good.

I think the RS 200 has just about got it right.   It attracts class swoppers from almost all of the sitting out classes and can be sailed with parent child, hubby wife, girlfriend/boyfriend etc.   And it has a very easy, tiddly, asymmetric kite which is fun and  much, much easier than any symmetric kite ( Lark, Scorpion, GP etc).   It can also be sailed on the open waters and puddles.  But we all know that they very rarely sail on the apparent wind, so, a well sailed Lark will beat an RS 200 straight downwind in the lighter stuff.  But most club courses with mixed racing rarely have dead runs, so, this isn't a problem and of course in RS class racing the lack of apparent wind ability  doesn't matter.  The RS 200 was very, very carefully thought out and may prove to be the most successful RS class.  

I think the 59er is about as good a compromise as its gets but the take up has been minimal or near on zero.   The complex and expensive over rotating wing mast of the Tasar was dumped on the 59er in favour of a big asymmetric which gave a massive performance boost.  It sails on the apparent wind, planes upwind and has an easy kite system. 

If the 59er failed, then there is a lesson to be understood.   And I don't believe its all about a marketing failure but I do accept the marketing of the 59er in Europe was crap.

If the Icon was fitted with an asymmetric, how would it differ from the 59er ?

The problem with the MRX is that the Merlin has become virtually one
design, well a version of the Winder Merlin for most. Development classes
seem do well when there is a dominant shape, and little development. But
throughout their history they have spawned one design classes, loosely
based on their concept. Examples such as the Firefly, Enterprise, Graduate
and more recently the RS200/400, and the Tasar. The MRX was supposed
to fill the symmetrical one design gap, but the Merlin as done that itself
to a degree. All these classes have prospered having taken the latest hull
shape/ build method of the day and producing a boat that is up to date, a
step forward to sail from the other one designs available.
The concept of a new one design 2 sailed boat has been bouncing around
for a long time, glad someone has got the guts to take it on. If the weight
carrying is somewhere in the region of 130-150kg it could be a winner.
Personally I would over canvas it, like the Phantom, with a carbon rig, well
at the tip minimum, no need to go for over complication, then just give it
a marketable handicap and the boat will do well.

Andy
Once you have 30 at the nats, I will get one!

Originally posted by andymck Personally I would over canvas it, like the Phantom, with a carbon rig, well at the tip minimum, no need to go for over complication, then just give it a marketable handicap and the boat will do well.

The 59er is just what you have described and adds an easy to handle asymmetric for great downwind oomph.   That failed.   Remove the kite and the boat has no purpose and you may as well stick to your Ent/Grad/N12/Albacore/Tasar.

I'm all for Mike having a go at this and introducing a "sort of " N12 for heavier people, where I think, maybe, there is a market.   But lets face it, the Tasar,  fills this spot and isn't a success in the UK, so, I struggle to see where the Icon will gain a following. 

In case we forget, the popular RS 200 has a PY of 1059  and the Tasar has a PY of 1023.  The unpopular Tasar is faster yet carries very slightly less "main and jib" sail area and has no spinnaker to help it downwind.  Go figure that one out.

In the 59er, Bethwaite built a "modern and better" Tasar with a kite and it flopped.  More figuring out to do...