Cirrus Icon Development

   I believe the Merlin class rules would make it very tricky to develop a mainsail that would work well with a over rotating wing mast ... combine that with the issues of a symetrical spinnaker that needs a mast mounted pole and I think you have the answer ....

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Guest Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guest Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Cirrus Icon Development Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 9:10pm
	I believe the Merlin class rules would make it very tricky to develop a mainsail that would work well with a over rotating wing mast ... combine that with the issues of a symetrical spinnaker that needs a mast mounted pole and I think you have the answer ....

blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 9:17pm
	Rick - think you are probably right .. a bit too complicated even for the Merlins perhaps. But complication has never stopped them completely in the past and there are some very inventive minds out there. Don't know the Merlin rules well enough to comment about them but as said I have had a couple of enquiries from MR owners. Many cats get round the over-rotating mast and spinnaker issue but being asymetric of course. Mike L.

Slippery Jim Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Nov 09 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 586	Post Options Post Reply Quote Slippery Jim Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 9:20pm
	The problem with Ally wingmasts is mainly to do with getting consistently good alloy. (Quote from Julian Bethwaite). This is a motivation factor apparently for the Tasar class´s investigation into a carbon wingmasts. There is a design (as far as I know a 2 piece) and some in the class are privy to it. Unfortunately, I didn´t get a chance to see it. Good luck Mike, but after having seen the data, my opinion is not to go for aluminium.
	Pass the skiff, man!

Skiffybob Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 842	Post Options Post Reply Quote Skiffybob Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 9:27pm
	"we have checked and are now considering extruding alloy" Welcome to the 1980s
	12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by AC - GBR271 - Whoosh B49 - Island Alchemy

andymck Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397	Post Options Post Reply Quote andymck Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 9:37pm
	Mike You may have noticed us trying winged rudders on Snorburys Foolish at the end of last year, it did not seem to make a huge difference to that boat as far as speed was concerned. On the DCB, which is essentially a 1970's inland hull (Jo has an almost identical set of lines from then, which was not built as it would have been a dog on open water without the T foil) the rudder allows the trim to be altered and and force the boat to plane early on its forward sections, and also provides lift to make the boat think its longer. The general feeling is that in non trapeze boats they are less likely to work on boats with little rocker, and that any tendency to pitch poling may be made worse, as the lift tends to push the nose down. Having said that, they make the boat very stable in a blow, especially through the gybe. They will not make a big difference on all boats, the Camms tried it before on their Numinous and discarded it, but I think the wings are now bigger. Looking at the hull in the pics, I am not sure it would be a great advantage on that boat, The DCB and Paradigm were designed around the foil, and the similarity to the 1970's boat is apparently a coincidence. They are also a ball ache to transport, will let you know later in the year how much. Looking forward to seeing what my new boat is going to look like at the dinghy show. I hope your boat does do well, as an inland sailor, who struggles to keep to weight for a 12, this is an attractive option. Hopes this helps. Andy N!2 35??
	Andy Mck

blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 10:38pm
	Skiffybob I was using composite carbon masts IN the 80's before most of you ...... and a great many since. As a material the use of carbon and allied materials can be very useful but in a SMOD it is not necessarily the only answer. It is not ultimate performance we are after - just very good performance within a largely fixed and standard package . All boats are compromises - and the cost/performance issues cannot be ignored. If you read the previous posts carefully however you will note that we do have a carbon stick (45mm) mast prepared and will be running it against the more standard NS wing rig - in alloy. If wing rig 'loses' then carbon stick it is .... if however alloy wing 'wins' on balance over the carbon stick then we face a difficult choice as carbon wing masts are just a wee tad more expensive than carbon stick masts ... as you must know - think something tending towards A class cat prices for a good one rather than something that is token carbon and coloured black (or white !). Whatever the work proves we will not use a 'carbon' stick simply because it is made of carbon ! And in the UK we can/do produce very good (mast) alloy, this is not the case in much of the world as I am finding out. andymck Thanks - instinct was saying exactly as you suggest. As the hull form is fairly low rocker and it is longer anyway I don't think it is needed / desirable. However if we can get our hands on one in the next few weeks we will give it ago. We favour simplicity anyway and the SMOD model tends towards value and simplicity .... but you have to try these things. Mike L.

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 9:02am
	Have you considered a comically oversized Genoa?
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

tickler Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jun 07 Location: Tunstead Milton Online Status: Offline Posts: 895	Post Options Post Reply Quote tickler Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 9:07am
	Carbon masts are jolly fashionable and a boat without one looks, well, old fashioned. But there were good ali masts, the Tasar is a work of art as we know but there are others. The original Lightning's had a Superspars mast with a "wankell" section lower down and a tapering top section was brilliant with gust response before gust response was even invented. I think OK's used something similar. So, if fashion is the driver I know where you can buy very convincing carbon fiber "Fablon"..................

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 9:19am
	Maybe it's time for wood to make a comeback.
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

Guest Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guest Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 9:33am
	I don't know what your measure of success is with this project, mabybe you just enjoy developing boats.But if it is selling a reasonable number of boats I think you'd have a much better chance of success if you decided to be the UK builder/importer of the NS14 than if you decide to do your own class that is similar. With the NS14 you can reference an already successful fleet down under and offer the prospect of participation in good overseas championships. With a new class you start from nothing; I mountain top climb, one that historically only the big 3 have been able to summit with limited exceptions.