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PY Numbers (again)

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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Numbers (again)
    Posted: 02 Jan 10 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Graham is bang on regarding disparity in sailing ability being far more telling than even a large (30 pt) reduction in PY. I guess until Steve Cockerill is cloned to sail all these boats against himself in a variety of conditions it'll always be tricky.

Below is a graph for hiking S/H boats that I put together, with actual PY against predicted according to the formula:

Predicted PN =

(0.4*(3198*(Length^-0.7713))

+(0.05*(849.37*((Tot Displ/Length^3)^0.3367))

+(0.4*(2658*((RM/Tot Displ)^-0.4516)))

+(0.15*(947.7*((SA/L^2)^-0.2454)))

Where the RM is calculated by an assumed sailor height / weight pertaining to each class, and some biomechanical data.

Most of the scatter, esp in the faster boats can be attributed to waterline beam, i.e skinny boats like canoes, RS300, non foiling moth, will be quicker than their parameters would suggest as the L/Bwl will be higher, so lower drag for most of the speed ranges dinghies operate in. Accurate Bwl data is pretty hard to come by tho..

Other causes for scatter include: Design excellence - i.e within these parameters you could have 2 boats that would appear identical on paper, one is shaped like a matchbox or has a highly inefficient rig, the other one is a more optimal design. Also the "PN effect" - rarer designs/less widely sailed designs/less generally well sailed designs will not show as well from the PN returns, hence will have actual PNs suggesting they are slower than they are. Lasers are the converse of this - to the left of the line despite being quite crude in many ways.

The streaker is to the right of the black line, suggesting that its actual PY is a bit lenient, and a 30pt drop would bring it near the black line.

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bert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 10 at 9:58pm

Oh my giddy aunt,That can`t be right,That has the Phantom on a PY of 1045 ish.

Oh No hide that graph before anyone else sees it!!  --  brilliant.

read the signature

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 10 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by bert

Oh my giddy aunt,That can`t be right,That has the Phantom on a PY of 1045 ish.

Oh No hide that graph before anyone else sees it!!  --  brilliant.

read the signature


Why hide it?  By Dans own admission its based on calculations?!  Doesn't prove anything.

There are plenty of Phantom sailors out there Bert that are not arrogant enough to think its just their sailing ability that makes them win races!! 

 

As for your signature please take heed of your own advice.  Think Logically, is it your sailing ability or your boats blatant wrong handicap that means you collect a bucket load of trophies at the club dinner dance? 



Edited by Merlinboy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 10 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by bert

Also now it has a lot of top flight sailors in the fleet who travel to events which allow people to see the boat sailed to it`s top potential rather the level of the club sailor - that would be my level.

 

I sail a Phantom pretty slowly but with a style all of my own & do my best to hold the PY down & at 16.5 stone the Phantom is the best boat for me but realistically you need to sail the boat that allows you to enjoy your sailing at what ever level YOU want & that is suited to you & your location.

At my club there is a Phantom sailor who doe’s well, top of the fleet most club races & then there’s people like me who enjoys the sailing but do not have the techniques or the desire to sail top end sadly.

I took this quote for you ( page 12 ) merlinboy just so you know my level & MY shelves are sady lacking in cups -- Phantoms or not

 



Edited by bert
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 8:04am

[/QUOTE]

I took this quote for you ( page 12 ) merlinboy just so you know my level & MY shelves are sady lacking in cups -- Phantoms or not

 

[/QUOTE]

 

The sad thing is Bert, so are mine!  I like to blame it on the Phantoms but in reality i think we all know the reason why!!



Edited by Merlinboy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 8:24am
Originally posted by bert

Oh my giddy aunt,That can`t be right,That has the Phantom on a PY of 1045 ish.

Oh No hide that graph before anyone else sees it!!  --  brilliant.

What that line shows to me is that if 3 boats (inc.Phantom) have the right PY, 6 are "bandits" and the remaining 16 have a PY which is too harsh!

Perhaps the line is in the wrong place?  I would hope that the majority of boats have the PY about right, not a minority! 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 10:55am

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by JimC

even with my monstrous ego ...


Got to be forum quote of the year so far...

Early days...you've got all year to better it!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 12:21pm
Thanks for posting the graph merlinboy - but I'm afraid I cant read it. Does anyone have a version suited to older eyes!? Dan maybe?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 12:32pm
Click on it, it gets bigger.
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 10 at 1:58pm

Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Click on it, it gets bigger.

What he meant was - CLICK ON IT IT GETS BIGGER

sorry, I didn't realise either  and had the same problem!

Finn's are interesting!

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http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk
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