PY Numbers (again)

Simon thats not fair, late stater sugested the class should of taken on board the issue and created a recommended adjusted PY for clubs etc.

Originally posted by Late starter Originally posted by Simon Childs Oh then - according to "Late Starter" the Phantom PY issue is down to the Class Association - what a load of cobblers ! We are all sailing at our clubs off varying adjusted PY's its not the Associations fault - we have many a discussion on the Forum as to the differing Club adjustments used. Grafham has previously used adjusted PYs for the Grand Prix, but now does not - It isn't the Classes fault it has no input into the RYA scheme or returns, it is down to the Clubs and major events to submit surely ! So the debate about the Phantom class PY is "cobblers" is it. Thanks for clarifying the position of the class.

Forums can be a nightmare to discuss issues on, especially when people like "Late Starter" here, either fail to read a post properly or deliberatly missquote to aid their argument!!!!

Read it properly, Simon clearly states it's cobblers to blame the Class Association, nowhere does he say its cobblers to debate it.......

I sailed a Phantom for several years but left the class earlier this year as my weight was dropping below 85kg and am now sailing a Solo.

I was happy to race the Phantom off 1000 at our club, and I'm now happy sailing against them on 1000, the majority of inland clubs with Phantom fleets sail them off well below the recomended yardstick, thats how the PY System is supposed to work, adjusted by clubs to suit... and as stated earlier in this thread the real race is always against boats of the same class, personally I will do very little if any club sailing from April onwards, all my sailing time will be spent travelling in order to compete against the highest quality fleet I can, and always in class meetings, handicap meetings are a bit of fun, no more, no less.

 

 

Originally posted by Late starter "nothing to do with me guv" about the Phantom PY debate, beyong sl*gging off anyone who raises it!   Not impressive guys.The sort of action I'd expect the class to take is along the lines of the Merlins, ie class recommended PY adjustments alongside age of boat/spec of boat or whatever the class feels is appropriate.

Oh nonsense nonsense nonsense.

It is nothing to do with the Class Association, they have no influence in the matter whatsoever. What's more, with their prime role being to organise class racing, they probably don't have the expertise. And I don't see anything being said here by the Class Association, which I would think (properly) keeps its mouth shut. Some Phantom sailors sure have something to say, and in a free country they should be allowed to.

The business about handicaps for old boats, which most development classes do, is all about where boats have intrinsically very different designs and often were desgned to different rule sets. I'll think you'll find very few make any recommendation for current boats with, importantly, new sails, which makes far more difference than any subtleties in construction.

Originally posted by JimC Originally posted by Late starter So the debate about the Phantom class PY is "cobblers" is it. I would say so, yes, and I have exactly nothing to do with the class...

 

Jim, you keep on about statistics!  How about you get out there and actually race against them!  There is an obvious problem!  you can read what you like from statistics, Christ the government do enough!

 

I've said it before and Im sure people who know me know where I stand on this issue but I think the PY system is really good at what it does - creating a levelish playing field that we can all race against each other in different types of boats. Yes there are flaws and it is easy to blame the system but the reason it is successful in my eyes is because of its simplicity. I.e. each class has one number so everyone knows where they are and what they have to race against.

I believe the PY numbers have remained fairly static for a few years due to lack of returns, what else could the RYA do other than use the little info they received? I believe this year there have been more returns made so I, along with everyone else, am looking forward to seeing what happens. One thing is for sure, I can probably guarantee that as soon as the new numbers are published there will be threads galore on all the sailing sites where at least someone isnt happy with their new or even unchanged numbers. Thats just the nature of the beast I am afraid, but the system does work, and the phantoms are beatable on their current handicap, or certainly they are at our club where we do not adjust numbers, although admittedly it is very difficult.

What I dont think that should happen to PY's is that the sytem should be over complicated by having different numbers for the same class depending on the age of the boat. This might mean that when you turned up at open meetings you needed to know your own crafts rating which may be different to anothers. What would happen at a single class open meeting, would you then say that everyones number was the same or run it on a timed basis? Isn't this what happens in yacht racing and you need a measurement for your boat before you can enter any racing? This could be something to consider if thats how we wanted dinghy racing to go in the future but it would be difficult to build up enough data if you were doing it on a timing returns basis. It would basically turn into an effective personal handicapping system unless calculated from boat measurements and took a bit off for having say a carbon mast as opposed to a tin rig. It would just become far too complicated and even harder to police than the current system, which works well enough for what it is....

Peaky, the RYA sytem may be about to catch up but as i said above people wont be happy when it does, so you cant win either way. I believe next years PYs published at the dinghy show will be the first using the new computerised return system.

In handicap racing the conditions will always suit one class over another but the good guys will still win regardless. Using the phantom class, as an example has been made of it in this thread, they have a large amount of very good guys in their fleet that go out and do the big handicap events with a lot of success. Is this an average cross section of ability in the entire fleet? Agreed, there are classes that need to have slight adjustments made but what I would say to everyone who thinks any classes handicap is unfair is that they should make sure their club is returning every possible result so that this can be proven and then taken in to acount for the following years modifications to the PY numbers by the RYA. If your club isnt making returns and one class is winning and you think it is because of their handicap do something about it and make the returns.


Edited by chrisg