PY Numbers (again)

Originally posted by Merlinboy Roger Most clubs worth their salt with big enough stretches of water split the Asymmetric out and run w/l racing for them, in these instances i would doubt a Phantom comes up against them.

I do

When they are planning.... they win, when there not i win

Exactly Getafix, if a club doesnt run W/L racing then a Phantom should still dick a 49er round the cans on PY.  The tiger trophey and bloody mary sometimes highlights this!

Jim you have misunderstood my point, the point was that on a round the cans course doesn't really suit the fast Asymmetric.  I agree the bloody Mary this year was a Drifter i was there (Were you) and this suited the hikers even more just look at the results!  Perhaps the BM and TT were bad examples.  My point is that round a club cans course a Phantom would be better suited then a fast Asymmetric boat, and at bigger clubs they run W/L racing normally which means a Phantom wouldn't even be in the same fleet!  As for being a pathetic handicap bandit (I'm guessing this is a pathetic attempt at sarcasm?), read the thread even the Phantom sailors agree its wrong!  Perhaps you are a sailing superstar and don't notice it Jim?

Jim, you can read what you want from the stats, real life experience is what counts.  The fact that the Phantom sailors on here admit the handicap is wrong should be enough, but the fact that the whole sailing world other then you thinks its wrong still isn't!!  if i race in my 300 against a Phantom sailor who is of lesser ability to me and he beats me in every wind range other then absolutely honking where my experience gets me round a course and not him, how can it be right?  I'm afraid you can ferret away with all the bullsh*t stats you want the PY is wrong, i draw this conclusion from actually getting out there and sailing in many different locations, in many types of races! Not from looking at a computer screen counting stats!

 

Jim's points are all very valid, I know he looked at the data after the Bloody Mary and it was all posted then.

The other thing from this years BM is while a Phantom won, the rest of the Phantom fleet were spread down the field, the results were very supportive of the fact the Phantom has a spot on handicap.

However I'm not going to suggest that one race in isolation is ever going to give the whole picture, it's not. Thats why results are collated from many clubs over an extended period of time.

The real issue is maybe people have to come to terms with the fact that certain conditions will help certain boats more than others, and that quite simply everybody can't win every race. Much of the discussion here has always been based on the "I dont like being beaten by  xyz" or "I'm better and expect to beat them" or "if I had one of those I'd win"

Reality is that the only true and fair race is in boats of the same class with no handicap adjustment, everything else is a compromise. Unfortunatly the vast increase in the number of available classes over recent years has led to less and less fleet racing at club level. If you were to go back 20-30 years the majority of club level racing was done in fleets, now it is in handicap races. The best get better as they travel to opens, some follow and improve accordingly, but improving skills/boat speed in handicap racing is difficult, and for me has never been seen as anything other than practice for open meeting sailing, getting time on the water that I wouldn't otherwise.

sorry ranting and getting off the subjest towards the end there....

 

Edited by Roger