PY Numbers (again)

Originally posted by Merlinboy Tickler that is exactly my thoughts at 1030 i have a slim chance at 1010 i would be racing properly with Phantoms beating the sailors that are not as good as me and loosing to the better sailors and that would be across the wind range making it exactly how it should be! I know that some of the tp phantom sailors can sail a phantom to a handicap of 980 so that would tie up really well!

 

Afraid I just can't resist the temptation to have a say here, as the Phantom handicap has been debated to death on these boards so many times over the last year or two.

The Phantom is an ideal boat for racing on small enclosed waters, shifty light and patchy winds can make the boat almost unbeatable sailing off 1043 in a mixed fleet.

The Phantom tacks quickly, has a very light weight at 61kgs, a tall powerful and lightweight rig, planes early and in those conditions is reasonably easy to manage, so of course it will do well on these small ponds and gravel pits. Infact at our club the epoxy Phantoms have been sailing off 1000 for the past 2 years, and still remain very competitive winning a lot of handicap races and events.

Now put the Phantom on the sea, or on large stretches of water, sail in a much stronger breeze and try competing against powerful skiffs, 3 sail trapeze boats etc and you will find a somewhat different story, while the top sailors will always do well, at 1043 the Phantom will find it very difficult to compete with boats that can really stretch their legs and use their 3 sails to advantage downwind. Don't get me wrong, the Phantom is a great boat to sail in those conditions, it just needs it's 1043 handicap to get anywhere close to some other classes.

So the moral is simple and it really is what people fail to ever listen to regarding the PY system, and that's that every club needs to adjust to local numbers for local conditions, dont expect the published number to be anything other than an average and therefore by definition will not be right for the majority of places.

Clubs need to spend time looking at local results, applying that mystical skill factor to their sailors and using numbers that reflect the conditions they find on home waters week in week out.

In essence the Phantom hasn't changed now for over 7 years, epoxy hulls, carbon rigs, kevlar sails etc, but the number of boats that fit into this category has increased, as a result more data from the "new look" Phantom will be coming online. I do therefore expect the number to drop for 2010 which will I am sure make a lot of people very happy, however it will probably not decline as much as most here seem to hope, but that's because it's an average!!!!

PS: Former Phantom sailor, nolonger a boat owner....

 

 

Isn't the Phantom problem that there are now 2 classes in one, the superduper carbon epoxy ones used by the good front of the fleet sailors and the bigger number of mere mortals that still sail the wood n tin boats. If you are going to only count the results of the rock stars who win then certainly the handicap needs adjusting but this going to be hugely unjust to the woodentops who plod along week after week never winning anything.

Perhaps the RYA should officially split the class in 2 and have contemporary and classic handicaps, but where that would leave the class i dunno

Norbet i'm not sure thats right, you rarely see woodies around now!  Remember as the Phantom is such a light weight beast and is still a bloody big boat, many (Not All) have just fallen to bits.  How many tin rig boats made it to the Phantom nationals?  There are plenty of 'Average' club sailors sailing epoxy carbon masted phantoms, unfortunately the boat makes them look a lot better then they actually are!!  This is a testament to the Phantom as a dinghy!  Unfortunately for the wooden boat sailors that are still out there, they will have to stomach a PY drop or appeal to their club sailing sec.  The owners have chosen to sail in a developing class and as such their boats have been outclassed by development. 

PS i see your point about how there is two classes developing.

Originally posted by IanW Phantoms have won 80% of club series's at Lyme Regis over the past 5-6 years hardly a gravel pit.

 

Ian

Well sadly your post contains no information so I've done the work for you and had a look at the Lyme results for 2009 to date......

Firstly, there are some very good Phantom sailors at Lyme, as there are in other classes too, notably Albacore and Scorpion.

What you fail to mention is that the vast majority of the fleet is made up of Phantoms, Albacores, Scorpions, and Lasers with a few others thrown in too. Not the powerful skiffs and 3 sail trapeze boats I alluded to in my post.

As a result most of the boats at Lyme could be said to be competing on pretty much equal terms, and looking at the results would back this up, Scorpion can win, and does often, Albacore can win and does almost always beating Phantoms on the way, all good sailors and all having their day.

The reason the Phantoms have won 80% of your series is because they turn up more often, they have enough results to not have to count DNS's, simple really.

 

Roger Most clubs worth their salt with big enough stretches of water split the Asymmetric out and run w/l racing for them, in these instances i would doubt a Phantom comes up against them.