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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Jul 09 at 4:43pm
The situation gets even murkier when an assymetric is overtaking to leeward in some breeze, and then the wind drops. His proper course is then to luff up to keep the kite filling. This is his proper course, which he would take if the other boat wasn't there. Therefore, theoretically, he isn't luffing  (as in changing course to force another boat to keep clear, which he isn't allowed to do), so can he change course and force the windward boat to change course?
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 09 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by English Dave

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

But the only way to stop IS to bear off and stop; down wind, on the wire with the kite up; 16-20kts in not unusual and when it all goes well much more.  You simply cannot just "stop" a boat weighing 104kg with 32.5sqm sail up!!  Once the windward hull is more than about 3 feet out of the water, you cannot go any higher (on bearing) without capsizing. 

This is why I generally go below most things!!!! as I'm catching them at 10+kts!!!

I sympathise, Simon, and it's all a bit tricky when you are single handed. I am getting strangely addicted to taking the Hurricane out on my own on Thursday nights but 10kts is about my limit at the mo. But when I club race (with crew) we are often set "butterfly courses" and choosing your line through a convoy of Lasers racing across your path is a constant hassle. It's quite common for me to have to let the kite flog and dump the traveller to avoid them and I'm surpised the same isn't possible for you. Although I do appreciate that you only have two hands and the mainsheet is probably lying cleated on the tramp. While you hold onto kite sheet and tiller.

Dave

Differences are the following

1, Boat is 90kg (almost 50%) lighter than the Hurri
2, Your mainsail is only 2.5sqm bigger 15sqm vs 17.5)
3, Your Kite is only 3.5Sqm bigger (17.5 vs 21)
4, Dumping the traveller will only gain me 15-30 degrees and I'd have to lean in to get it if it has not washed out the back; Yes, usually it's all on the tramp

As I said; let the kite flog and you are usually swimming very quickly unless you BEAR OFF; the boat IS light!!!!

In order to be luffed any higher than I am already(so someone comes up from behind; I need to take the kite down or capsize on top of them.  It's not "seaman like manner" to capsize!!. 

If someone luffs I'll simply state "if you want me to avoid you in a seaman like way, I need to take the kite down.  To do that I need to bear off, come in off the wire and take it down, this will take a few seconds, I'd suggest it would be far better if you gybed away.  Do you intend to take me higher, if so, you need to bear off NOW to allow me to take the kite down, see R15"  and see what happened!!!

 

15 ACQUIRING right of way

When at boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boats actions.

To refresh ;

Room: The space a boat needs in existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Comments Rule Guru's ??????

 
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 8:46am

All points taken Simon. Like I said, I know it's difficult.

With regard to the rules, however, I think that the key phrase is "unless she acquires right of way because of the other boats actions."

Given that you are bowling along faster than the others, you will be "rolling" the leward boats as you scoot past. That gives them right of way from "your" actions and they can luff you without warning or room. However, their timing has to be spot on. At a speed differential of 5+ kts your will only be overlapped for a couple of seconds.
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Posts: 1502 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 10:06am
I sympathise with Simon too, but you've got to give yourself lots of space if you sail that sort of boat in mixed company.  I've been there in the 4000 when sailing at Bough Beech and there's been loads of kids in Toppers.
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Posts: 589 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Scooby_simon


If someone luffs I'll simply state "if you want me to avoid you in a seaman like way, I need to take the kite down. 


15 ACQUIRING right of way

When at boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boats actions.

To refresh ;

Room: The space a boat needs in existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Comments Rule Guru's ??????

 



Sure - I'd suggest that if you are unable to alter course either way without danger of capsizing and yet are in reasonable proximity to L then you are possibly not keeping clear under rule 11.

Remember that this is one of those few occasions in the rules where it is quite possible to penalise both L and W in the same situation - L for a rule 15 infringement and W for a rule 11 infringement, and it does happen reasonably frequently in a team race situation

I'll admit to not having watched cats racing but if you were sat in front of me in a protest room trying to make that argument that you need room to bear away then I think I might stuggle to see your point of view. 

Is there any reason why you wouldn't just blast through to leeward anyway? Certainly in the 4K when coming across Laser's etc on crossing courses or even converging course, I'd always try to go to leeward and use the extra pace to ignore the windshadow - that way you always have freedom but going above can lead to the situation you've described.

Of coure the other situation is to only do open meetings....
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 11:01am

Originally posted by laser4000



Sure - I'd suggest that if you are unable to alter course either way without danger of capsizing and yet are in reasonable proximity to L then you are possibly not keeping clear under rule 11.


I'll admit to not having watched cats racing but if you were sat in front of me in a protest room trying to make that argument that you need room to bear away then I think I might stuggle to see your point of view. 


Totally agree.

Perhaps this should have been posted under the 'rules' column. A recent 'luffing' thread has just concluded, which gives a clear obligation for windward to 'keep clear'. Gordon suggested that more of us should make ourselves familiar with the definitions as well as the rules.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Andymac

Totally agree.

Perhaps this should have been posted under the 'rules' column. A recent 'luffing' thread has just concluded, which gives a clear obligation for windward to 'keep clear'. Gordon suggested that more of us should make ourselves familiar with the definitions as well as the rules.



Agreed, I think we have done this to death now (even if we don't all agree on it). Perhaps one of the admins could move the threat to the Racing Rules section?
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by English Dave

All points taken Simon. Like I said, I know it's difficult.

With regard to the rules, however, I think that the key phrase is "unless she acquires right of way because of the other boats actions."

Given that you are bowling along faster than the others, you will be "rolling" the leward boats as you scoot past. That gives them right of way from "your" actions and they can luff you without warning or room. However, their timing has to be spot on. At a speed differential of 5+ kts your will only be overlapped for a couple of seconds.

I thinking in this case where I'm being over taken to leeward; Agree; IF I'M overtaking, then I'm stuffed!!  Thus my earlier statement that I'll overtake to leeward.    
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 8:07pm
We race leadmines (mainly Sigma33) during club racing. As a
one design class they bunch and they have a big wind
shadow. You cannot allow yourself to go to leeward of them
with the kite up. Often I will delay the hoist in order to
climb to windward after a mark just to give myself room.
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 09 at 8:51pm

Originally posted by English Dave

We race leadmines (mainly Sigma33) during club racing. As a
one design class they bunch and they have a big wind
shadow. You cannot allow yourself to go to leeward of them
with the kite up. Often I will delay the hoist in order to
climb to windward after a mark just to give myself room.

Which would hopefully solve the problem.  I get a big gust I can be bearing off 40 degrees!!!

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