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luffing another boat downwind

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Noah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Jul 09 at 12:17pm

I find it incredible that the rules effectively grant the give way boat temporary right of way to get themselves into shape to give way. I'm not aware that RoW has to give 'room' to the GW boat, only 'time and opportunity' to keep clear. Having been given time & opportunity GW has to give RoW room to sail their course.

What happens if the kite from w/w touches l/w during the drop? Who is at fault then?

In the situation described, I would have thought that w/w has to give room to l/w to sail their course, even if w/w has to flog or stall their kite to do so.

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rogerd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 09 at 4:59pm
In my experience any luffing match just lets the rest of the fleet sail on. Unless you need to slow said boat (and yourself in the process) for tactical reasons best to avoid the situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 09 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Noah

In the situation described, I would have thought that w/w has to give room to l/w to sail their course, even if w/w has to flog or stall their kite to do so.

Oh yes, exactly so. But what L is not allowed to do is to "ambush" them so that its impossible for them to respond.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 09 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Noah

I find it incredible that the rules effectively grant the give way boat temporary right of way to get themselves into shape to give way. I'm not aware that RoW has to give 'room' to the GW boat, only 'time and opportunity' to keep clear. Having been given time & opportunity GW has to give RoW room to sail their course.

What happens if the kite from w/w touches l/w during the drop? Who is at fault then?

In the situation described, I would have thought that w/w has to give room to l/w to sail their course, even if w/w has to flog or stall their kite to do so.

 

Some Asyms boats CANNOT flog the kite without going swimming.  If I let go of my KIte sheet when trying to go high I'll just fall in, if I go too high, I'll just fall in!

For me to drop the Kite, I need to come in off the wire (and thus bear off) and then drop the kite. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 09 at 4:08pm

Whilst w/w is protected from a l/w ambush by the 2-lengths to leeward rule if the overlap is achieved from astern, in the OP situation l/w was rolled while getting up to speed, so it doesn't apply. IF this went to protest, I would expect w/w to have made some allowance for the fact that they made themselves g/w boat by going to w/w. The rules say that g/w does not have to anticipate any moves RoW makes (don't they?), but they put themselves there, so should suffer the consequences.

Scooby - I reckon you'd just have to slow / stop 'till l/w has gone through to avoid an infringement...

Nick
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ellistine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 09 at 4:36pm
Christ, I never knew this would get so complicated! At the
end of the day if I had gybed or slowed enough to head up
and pass I would still have got to the mark quicker than if
I had held the position I did. If I had tried to luff him
it could have taken even longer by the time he had conjured
some sort of trick to get out my way.

I can see why this would be useful in a finals race etc but
on a club handicap I suppose clear air is still king.

Interesting stuff though!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 09 at 6:19pm

Originally posted by ellistine


I can see why this would be useful in a finals race etc but
on a club handicap I suppose clear air is still king.

Interesting stuff though!

Luffing as a weapon is only really any use when used against a boat in the same class or of similar performance to yourself. As you have rightly pointed out, clear air is king (especially on smaller inland waters).

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 09 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Noah

Whilst w/w is protected from a l/w ambush by the 2-lengths to leeward rule if the overlap is achieved from astern, in the OP situation l/w was rolled while getting up to speed, so it doesn't apply. IF this went to protest, I would expect w/w to have made some allowance for the fact that they made themselves g/w boat by going to w/w. The rules say that g/w does not have to anticipate any moves RoW makes (don't they?), but they put themselves there, so should suffer the consequences.

Scooby - I reckon you'd just have to slow / stop 'till l/w has gone through to avoid an infringement...

But the only way to stop IS to bear off and stop; down wind, on the wire with the kite up; 16-20kts in not unusual and when it all goes well much more.  You simply cannot just "stop" a boat weighing 104kg with 32.5sqm sail up!!  Once the windward hull is more than about 3 feet out of the water, you cannot go any higher (on bearing) without capsizing. 

This is why I generally go below most things!!!! as I'm catching them at 10+kts!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 09 at 12:04pm

It's generally good not to get caught up in luffing matches/ bumps of rapid takcs - they all slow you down!

Unfortunatley, when push comes to shove, you need to know which boat to hit first - or at least which boat should give way.

The Racing Rules (and indeed the Collision Regulations) are not written with specific examptions like "I was windard multihull, therefore I could not give way to a leeward boat - because I need to turn downwind to slow down".

Perhaps the multihuills should fly code flag "D" - or the "ball + Diamond + ball" for a vessel restricted in its ability to manoeuvre? Otherwise the assumption is that the normal rules will apply - and that can raise a significant risk of damage and injury.

Colin

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English Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 09 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

But the only way to stop IS to bear off and stop; down wind, on the wire with the kite up; 16-20kts in not unusual and when it all goes well much more.  You simply cannot just "stop" a boat weighing 104kg with 32.5sqm sail up!!  Once the windward hull is more than about 3 feet out of the water, you cannot go any higher (on bearing) without capsizing. 

This is why I generally go below most things!!!! as I'm catching them at 10+kts!!!

I sympathise, Simon, and it's all a bit tricky when you are single handed. I am getting strangely addicted to taking the Hurricane out on my own on Thursday nights but 10kts is about my limit at the mo. But when I club race (with crew) we are often set "butterfly courses" and choosing your line through a convoy of Lasers racing across your path is a constant hassle. It's quite common for me to have to let the kite flog and dump the traveller to avoid them and I'm surpised the same isn't possible for you. Although I do appreciate that you only have two hands and the mainsheet is probably lying cleated on the tramp. While you hold onto kite sheet and tiller.

English Dave
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