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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Rupert 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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 Topic: To the finishPosted: 20 Jul 09 at 8:48am |
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I had some one pointing lower than me up the beat come down from the windward side and actually roll round my bow as I tried to bear away to avoid them yesterday...and then claim they were "mast to beam", so don't worry about your rules knowledge, everybody, unless you think, as he did, that there was nothing wrong with it! People on the other side of the lake were, apparantly, aware of my views on the matter, and he did do turns.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 09 at 7:21pm |
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Thanks Gordon, I think my ignorance has demonstrated that 'no-one ever reads them!' |
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gordon
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Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 09 at 11:19am |
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Andymac,
The second part of the definition of keeping clear (the definitions are the most important part of the rule book but no-one ever reads them!) is quite clear: - when boats are overlapped a boat is keeping clear if "the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat" So W may go no closer to L than the distance W needs to react by manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike manner to any change of course L may wish to make When L changes course, if she does not instanly make contact with W (in which case W is not keeping clear) she must give W room to react. In other words no sudden luffs to catch windward boat out! Hailing "Up! Up!" before luffing is not required, but it does demonstrate a willingness to allow W room to keep clear. Gordon |
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Gordon
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 09 at 10:26am |
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Thanks Gordon, Since W's obligation to 'keep clear' is absolute, my interpretation of this is to allow L to sail her proper course without impeding it. My query is that once L bears away (on a proper course) W is also allowed to bear away (on a proper course) whilst still fulfilling its obligation to keep clear. If L then decides that it wants to luff up again, it must give W room to keep clear under rule 16.1. If the gap / position between the 2 boats has closed so that W is unable to respond to L 'changing course' how has W infringed, given that a boat does not have to anticipate another boat changing course? Does W have to recognise any 'proper course' that L may wish to sail, and ensure it leaves L sufficient room for manouvre? |
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gordon
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Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 18 Jul 09 at 10:51am |
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The onus on W to keep clear is absolute - she MUST keep clear.
Leeward boat - if she changes course - must give W room to fulfill her obligation to keep clear, so no sudden luffs. If, as in this case, the leeward overlap is established from clear astern the there is a limitation on the course L can steer. However, W must still keep clear, if she believes that L is sailing above her proper then she MUST keep clear and protest L for infringing rule 17. L can decide, within reason, what is her proper course. To repeat myself, if W doesn't agree with this she must keep clear and protest. Gordon |
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Gordon
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 18 Jul 09 at 2:06am |
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I guess I should stand corrected. However can I ask; how much onus is there on W to keep clear? how much room for manoevre must W give to L? How can W necessarily know what the proper course for L is (since there can be more than one proper course, although in this particular situation, to fetch the finish line would be an obvious one) and keep clear boat does not have to 'anticipate' any change in course by L? |
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Scooby_simon
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Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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Posted: 17 Jul 09 at 12:58pm |
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No. Proper course is the course you would sail to get to the line quickest. Head to wind, for more than a second is stationary. Not proper course. Proper course only kicks in once there is an overlap. |
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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gordon
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Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 17 Jul 09 at 11:03am |
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Initially boat 2 is clear astern and must keep clear. She then establishes an overlap from clear astern and so acquires a right of way, she must initially give boat 1 room to keep clear, and is then subject to rule 17 and must not sail baove her proper course.
At this point boat 1 is windward boat must keep clear. If the boats are only 3-4 feet apart and boat 1 bears away to close the gap then she is not keeping clear, especially if in doing so she she is preventing boat 2 from sailing her proper course. Furthermore, the finishing mark, which I presume is to leeward of boat 2, has a zone, and when one of the two boats enters the zone rule 18 applies. Boat 2 would be inside boat overlapped to leeward and entitled to mark room. Boat 1 should take a penalty. Gordon |
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Gordon
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 17 Jul 09 at 12:14am |
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I guess W was reaching off for the same reason as L; to make better VMG to finish line. The fact that it also covered L was an added bonus! There is nothing to stop W bearing away over L, if L is bearing off also. The limitatation is that W (once overlap established) is keep clear boat. So W cannot force L lower. My understanding would be; If W 'narrows' the gap to L (whilst keeping clear) so that L cannot then change course back up to line (ie if L had bore away below the layline to catch a gust, then didn't have enough room to change course back or tack) whilst giving W room to keep clear (16.1). Then W has not broken a rule. |
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laser4000
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Joined: 02 Aug 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 589 |
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Posted: 16 Jul 09 at 11:09pm |
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Once Leeward becomes overlapped on Windward then W must keep clear. If W is 'closing the gap' on L then L is at risk of not keeping clear, albeit hard to prove in a protest without actual contact. Remember that it's L's proper course the governs and that v. close to the finishing line L's proper course could be considered to be head to wind as that is the route that might take it to the finish line as fast as possible. Also when you both reach along the finish line towards the port end then L is entitled to room on the finish line buoy which again includes room to go to head to wind if required.
Can't say I understand why W is reaching off however - unless he's team racing, in which case you'd assume it's umpired and surely then L can just hold their rights as Leeward and sail to finish. |
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