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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing Instructions interpretation...
    Posted: 18 Aug 12 at 6:34am
A5 SCORES DETERMINED BY THE RACE COMMITTEE
A boat that did not start, comply with rule 30.2 or 30.3, or finish, or that takes a penalty under rule 44.3(a) or retires after finishing, shall be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing. Only the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a  boat’s score.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 3:46pm
The event SargeSail was talking about: In the second race of the week, we started next to the CB (large yacht). We believed we were behind the line, but were certainly close (i.e. alongside the yacht, not waiting at its stern).
Results came out, we were DSQed. Queried it, and were told "only DSQ would be OCS". DRAT said the crew - and for the rest of the week refused to let me get close to the line at the start, in case my eyesight had gone... So this result affected every race after that.

At the end of the week, we were told "You didn't go around the spacer mark".
Actually we DID, and while doing so we ran into the back of the boat ahead, and hit the buoy at the same time :-( By the time we had completed the various turns, we had drifted with the tide almost into the line of boats between windward mark and the spacer. So on completing the turns we bore away quick and hoisted the kite... That was when we were spotted by either rescue boat or another competitor.
But we didn't know this until after the prize giving at the end of the week. And by then we were preparing to head for home, and even if they had re-instated us it couldn't alter the "don't go near the line" calls from the crew with 15 seconds to go.

Still: The crew says "we wont be going back there again".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 9:59am
Originally posted by sargesail

....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.
 
They could have still applied for redress irrespective of any 'Protest time limits'.
Sometimes a problem is not apparent until after results are posted by the race committee, this can sometimes be hours or even days/weeks after the race in question! If you can give a legitimate reason why the protest/redress request was submitted outside the protest limit then it should still have been considered.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:41am
Originally posted by sargesail

Gordon,

Happened at my last event too....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.

But I can't say I was surprised - all the rules/results work was poor.....I'll PM you later to ask your advice about what to do if I am in the same situation again...don;t want to air teh laundry on here!
 
Maybe the discussion here will help
 
 
That discussion focussed more on mid to long term issues within a club.  Problems with a specific regatta are more short term:  you usually only get a sniff of the problem when you first see the Draft or (worse still) Final SI.
 
I've said before that there are problems with bad or silly SI that the authors refuse to change.
 
One of the early signs of this problem is that the SI drafters omit or downright refuse to provide copies of the draft SI to the protest committee chair for review and/or ignore advice coming from such a review.
 
If it's your own club or race committee you may foresee problems in the organisation and planning phase.  Your challenge is then how to do the inter-personal politics and the actual work (redrafting SI, Briefing or re-training Asst RO, etc) in a short time-frame.  But that's nothing but an organisational change problem:  there's nothing the RRS that will give you much help (except just keep hammering people to use Appendix L/LE and not muck with it).
 
Edit:  And don't be afaid to amend SI in the course of the regatta if and when problems emerge or are confirmed.
 
You mentioned results and scoring.  That's something that is still only thinly covered in the new RM Manual.  If its not being done by someone who you KNOW will do a good job, then this needs to be carefully planned and reveiwed.
 
From a judges' point of view, if you haven't appointed an experienced and diligent jury secretary, then you need to make sure that all of the duties of the jury secretary shown in the Judges Manual Chap 8 are going to be effectively performed by someone.  That will do a huge amount to keep the results and protests issues on track. 


Edited by Brass - 16 Aug 12 at 12:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:38pm
Gordon,

Happened at my last event too....sadly too late for the boat to ask for redress (they believed they had been OCS - since none of the correct scoring codes had been used)....and once they became aware they were beyond caring - by the time we were discussing it they were outside the redress time limit.....but I wished they had.

But I can't say I was surprised - all the rules/results work was poor.....I'll PM you later to ask your advice about what to do if I am in the same situation again...don;t want to air teh laundry on here!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 1:38pm
Here is an example of a note to competitors regarding Jury policy. As used at some ISAF events:

Sailing is essentially a self-policing sport. The jury expect that boats will take a penalty promptly when appropriate. The primary responsibility for protesting breaches of the rules is with the competitors, not the jury. However, in addition to taking action in accordance with Appendix P, the jury may lodge protests in accordance with RRS 60.3.


The jury will not usually protest for a breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless they observe an apparent breach of good sportsmanship (RRS 2). Examples of such breaches are:

deliberate breach of the rules without taking a penalty and gaining an advantage.

failing to take a penalty after knowingly touching a mark with no justification for exoneration.

intimidating other boats – often evidenced by unnecessary shouting or foul language.

team tactics – sailing to benefit another boat to the detriment of your own position.

reckless sailing – sailing that results in or is likely to result in damage or injury.



My advice to Sargesail - be totally without mercy. Everytime the RC disqualifies a boat, except as provided for in rule A5, redress should be requested, and if refused an appeal made.


Gordon


Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

But there are far too many clubs which don't recognise that the RC can only DSQ for not failing to start or finish correctly (and that is the action of finsihing, not sailing the wrong course.
My understanding is that in these variable lap-counting formats there is usually a SI that permits the race committee to determine the score/number of laps and changes rule rule A5.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 1:52pm
Agreed Andy - but I would be able to write those essential details down when afloat.  Because it is all too easy to use up 20 minutes securing the boat on the trolley, dropping sails, pulling up the beach and then walking to the Club.

And some clubs still have a shocking attitude/understanding of their responsibilities to a competitor.

Having gone back to the OP here the bold call would have been to go ashore without sailing the extra lap, and then redress if scored DNF/DNC.  Easy to say with hindsight.

But there are far too many clubs which don't recognise that the RC can only DSQ for not failing to start or finish correctly (and that is the action of finsihing, not sailing the wrong course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 12 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by sargesail


BTW 20 minutes of coming ashore is not long.  If SIs said that I think I would have waterproof paper and a pencil in my BA, and write it before coming ashore!  Certainly the same in  plastic bag on the boat.  To me 20 minutes smacks of comedy event management.
 
As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong), you can lodge a protest in that time frame, and fill in the details later...
No need to hit the shore with a complete dossier prepared!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 12 at 5:03pm
Brass - The RC is not required to protest, but they cannot take action without a protest except in very limited circumstances.

As you rightly point out the PRIMARY responsibilty for enforcing the rules iswith the competitor. This does not mean that race officials have NO responsibility. There are circumstances in which a race official may protest. Which is why publishing clear policy of the circumstances in which a RC or PC will consider protesting makes things clearer for everyone.
Gordon
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