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Sailing down the fleet

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing down the fleet
    Posted: 11 Jun 12 at 9:44am
Originally posted by JimC

I don't have any problem with it as a tactic in equal boats in equal circumstances.
However if the odds aren't even, be it a significantly faster handicap boat on a slower one in a handicap race, or by perverting the scoring system when one boat has an average points award and the other doesn't, then I consider it grossly unsporting and I consider the case book needs to be altered to make that the situation.

...


I see the problem as being with the scoring system and poor application of 'average points'.
I would be against a convoluted system of when things are/are not allowed.

Regarding handicap races, and in particular those which may or may no be considered to constitute a series, I feel the best way forward would be a statement in the NoR or SI's which makes everything clear. I'm not aware of it being an issue in handicap otherwise?
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 12 at 8:49am
Originally posted by JimC

I don't have any problem with it as a tactic in equal boats in equal circumstances.
However if the odds aren't even, be it a significantly faster handicap boat on a slower one in a handicap race, or by perverting the scoring system when one boat has an average points award and the other doesn't, then I consider it grossly unsporting and I consider the case book needs to be altered to make that the situation.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 12 at 2:38am
I don't have any problem with it as a tactic in equal boats in equal circumstances.
However if the odds aren't even, be it a significantly faster handicap boat on a slower one in a handicap race, or by perverting the scoring system when one boat has an average points award and the other doesn't, then I consider it grossly unsporting and I consider the case book needs to be altered to make that the situation.

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The other rule I consider needs alteration is notification of protests. A hail should be enough in all craft. Dismissing a protest because a flag wasn't waved in 10 seconds flat (OK not a problem in dinghies) is to my mind against the whole self policing nature of the sport. People shouldn't be able to get away with rule breaches for legalistic reasons. In the fundamental rule it says that a boat that breaks a rule is required to take a penalty: it doesn't say that they should only take a penalty if another craft protests.


What there does need to be, if there is no swift flag or hail and the other competitor is genuinely unaware there was a rule breach or protest hail, is some kind of alternative penalty to DSQ available to the PC: something to put the penalised boat in the same sort of position they would have been in if they had seen the flag or heard the hail and taken an alternative penalty.



Edited by JimC - 11 Jun 12 at 2:48am
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 12 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Being knowingly OCS, not returning to start properly, and covering an opponent is a breach of 2. ISAF case 65. It's been in the casebook since 84. 

Good, I never saw it happen again over the years, it's a chicken sh*t tactic, ranks right up there with sailing epoxy versions of old classes on their original handicap... Good character building stuff.

There are a lot of sh*tty tricks you can pull racing but I always rated that as the worse glad they stopped it, as to the starting then covering, you still have to have a turn of boat/boardspeed off the line to get ahead enough to lay any sort of half decent cover on,I would have thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 12 at 10:15am
The point about singling out your closest competitor and sailing him down the fleet comes down to respect for that sailor. If you attack him it means, to my mind, you respect him as you see him capable of beating you. If you leave him alone it means you don't respect him as you believe he has no chance of beating you anyway.
 
Many years ago I closely covered a competitor in the final race to win a winter championship. He didn't have an answer and I apologised to him afterwards (but I did say I would also have done it to my own brother). Despite coming off second best he was dead chuffed as he said he had never been in a position before to have that happen - and he learned from the experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 12 at 9:06am
I seem to remember an incident in F1 where The ferarri team arranged it that Eddie Irvine, who was second on the grid drove deliberatly slower than he could do in order to try to let Michael Schumacher who was on the pole position get an advantage by bunching up and slowing the rest of the fleet. (Something similar I belive was the subject of a "team racing" protest at a recent I14 worlds(?)) And there are numerous examples of F1 teams using the second driver as a "tail gunner" to slow the pursuit of the rivals. Which is about as close as it gets to the match race in a fleet race scenario in sailing. though F1 is a "team" sport as we keep on being told.

Sailing is an individual sport, and at the top level win at any costs is expected (and I would argue necessary). If there was a chance for a Brit to win an olympic medal by employing this tactic, and instead they just raced round the course and let the other boat win by maintaining average then we would be all over them for letting the side down. Were the boot on the other foot we would all condem the winner, but only because our brave boy/girl was on the recieving end. Our brave competitor would then give the interview "I'm gutted... but I would have done exactly the same thing in situation reversal universe." 

If someone was to try to match race me at the trumpton sailing club regatta it would:

a) be suprising,
b) mean I was in with a shot of winning/getting in the choccies, cool.

I would only get upset if someone tried really agressive tactics on me in an attempt to get in front of me for the settling of minor places. Though if the fleet were suitably spread and I was the next boat behind my rival I would be foolish not to expect at least a loose cover/slam dunk on the beat. We are racing after all! The Idea is to get to the other end in front of other people. The degree of all costs varies with the competition level. I wouldn't try and sail someone down in any event I am likely to be at the front of, but I would absolutely cover someone. If I was within a point of the world championships against someone with superior boat speed I would absolutely roll the dice and try and tight cover them if it was the only way I stood a chance. You don't get to the front of a worlds fleet every day. Of course you try and win!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 10:13pm
+1.  So GRF your example of the dinghy sailor in the windsurf fleet who became a coach was not within the legit rules based technique that we are discussing.

So how do you argue against someone who starts legitimately and then covers?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 9:14pm
Being knowingly OCS, not returning to start properly, and covering an opponent is a breach of 2. ISAF case 65. It's been in the casebook since 84. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Hmm I've got to disagree, my sense of fair play was thoroughly offended the first time I came across it, in any other form of racing I'd previously experienced it wouldn't be tolerated and I could never understand why sailing does.

Interesting. (Honestly). 

Out of interest, what's your view of: 

a) Tackles in football/rugby/hockey
b) Spin/seam/fast bowling in cricket
c) Hitting a tennis ball in such a way that you're trying to maximise the difficulty of the opposition returning it. 
d) Racing drivers making it as difficult as possible for people behind to overtake? 

a,b & c are irrelevant they are not racing. Racing drivers making it difficult to overtake is nothing different tan luffing on a reach or covering downwind or upwind.

Using an F1 analogy, one team member starting before the green for go then positioning himself to prevent another member of an opposing team from getting a clear start or blocking him for several minutes would prompt more than just a stewards inquiry.

Its just wrong, no two ways about it, everyone in the real world (outside sailing) also thinks so, indefensible, dont try.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 12 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.


Nobody in Windsurfing had really experienced it until a young RYA dinghy squaddie turned windsurfer hovered above the line in the last race of the 1980 Nationals then sailed another young guy (who was about to beat him but didn't have the benefit of dinghy experience) down the fleet and it was only to acquire a third and he very nearly impeded me in doing so, I warned him what might happen if he did, it was an eye opener and nasty affair I didn't like it then and have absolutely no respect for anyone who does it now, if you can't beat them over the water you don't deserve the place.
Interesting he (the offender) went on to become an RYA coach.

And that was illegal then and is now - so a protest would have solved it.  Or is this another mythical GRF example.
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