Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Sailing down the fleet |
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 11 Jun 12 at 9:44am |
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I see the problem as being with the scoring system and poor application of 'average points'. I would be against a convoluted system of when things are/are not allowed. Regarding handicap races, and in particular those which may or may no be considered to constitute a series, I feel the best way forward would be a statement in the NoR or SI's which makes everything clear. I'm not aware of it being an issue in handicap otherwise? |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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+ 1
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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I don't have any problem with it as a tactic in equal boats in equal circumstances.
However if the odds aren't even, be it a significantly faster handicap boat on a slower one in a handicap race, or by perverting the scoring system when one boat has an average points award and the other doesn't, then I consider it grossly unsporting and I consider the case book needs to be altered to make that the situation. ------------------------ The other rule I consider needs alteration is notification of protests. A hail should be enough in all craft. Dismissing a protest because a flag wasn't waved in 10 seconds flat (OK not a problem in dinghies) is to my mind against the whole self policing nature of the sport. People shouldn't be able to get away with rule breaches for legalistic reasons. In the fundamental rule it says that a boat that breaks a rule is required to take a penalty: it doesn't say that they should only take a penalty if another craft protests. What there does need to be, if there is no swift flag or hail and the other competitor is genuinely unaware there was a rule breach or protest hail, is some kind of alternative penalty to DSQ available to the PC: something to put the penalised boat in the same sort of position they would have been in if they had seen the flag or heard the hail and taken an alternative penalty. Edited by JimC - 11 Jun 12 at 2:48am |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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Good, I never saw it happen again over the years, it's a chicken sh*t tactic, ranks right up there with sailing epoxy versions of old classes on their original handicap... Good character building stuff. There are a lot of sh*tty tricks you can pull racing but I always rated that as the worse glad they stopped it, as to the starting then covering, you still have to have a turn of boat/boardspeed off the line to get ahead enough to lay any sort of half decent cover on,I would have thought.
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Steve411 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 08 Location: Cheddar, Somerset, England Online Status: Offline Posts: 705 |
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The point about singling out your closest competitor and sailing him down the fleet comes down to respect for that sailor. If you attack him it means, to my mind, you respect him as you see him capable of beating you. If you leave him alone it means you don't respect him as you believe he has no chance of beating you anyway.
Many years ago I closely covered a competitor in the final race to win a winter championship. He didn't have an answer and I apologised to him afterwards (but I did say I would also have done it to my own brother). Despite coming off second best he was dead chuffed as he said he had never been in a position before to have that happen - and he learned from the experience.
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Jamie ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Jul 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 164 |
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I seem to remember an incident in F1 where The ferarri team arranged it that Eddie Irvine, who was second on the grid drove deliberatly slower than he could do in order to try to let Michael Schumacher who was on the pole position get an advantage by bunching up and slowing the rest of the fleet. (Something similar I belive was the subject of a "team racing" protest at a recent I14 worlds(?)) And there are numerous examples of F1 teams using the second driver as a "tail gunner" to slow the pursuit of the rivals. Which is about as close as it gets to the match race in a fleet race scenario in sailing. though F1 is a "team" sport as we keep on being told.
Sailing is an individual sport, and at the top level win at any costs is expected (and I would argue necessary). If there was a chance for a Brit to win an olympic medal by employing this tactic, and instead they just raced round the course and let the other boat win by maintaining average then we would be all over them for letting the side down. Were the boot on the other foot we would all condem the winner, but only because our brave boy/girl was on the recieving end. Our brave competitor would then give the interview "I'm gutted... but I would have done exactly the same thing in situation reversal universe." If someone was to try to match race me at the trumpton sailing club regatta it would: a) be suprising, b) mean I was in with a shot of winning/getting in the choccies, cool. I would only get upset if someone tried really agressive tactics on me in an attempt to get in front of me for the settling of minor places. Though if the fleet were suitably spread and I was the next boat behind my rival I would be foolish not to expect at least a loose cover/slam dunk on the beat. We are racing after all! The Idea is to get to the other end in front of other people. The degree of all costs varies with the competition level. I wouldn't try and sail someone down in any event I am likely to be at the front of, but I would absolutely cover someone. If I was within a point of the world championships against someone with superior boat speed I would absolutely roll the dice and try and tight cover them if it was the only way I stood a chance. You don't get to the front of a worlds fleet every day. Of course you try and win! |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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+1. So GRF your example of the dinghy sailor in the windsurf fleet who became a coach was not within the legit rules based technique that we are discussing.
So how do you argue against someone who starts legitimately and then covers?
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Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
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Being knowingly OCS, not returning to start properly, and covering an opponent is a breach of 2. ISAF case 65. It's been in the casebook since 84.
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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a,b & c are irrelevant they are not racing. Racing drivers making it difficult to overtake is nothing different tan luffing on a reach or covering downwind or upwind. Using an F1 analogy, one team member starting before the green for go then positioning himself to prevent another member of an opposing team from getting a clear start or blocking him for several minutes would prompt more than just a stewards inquiry. Its just wrong, no two ways about it, everyone in the real world (outside sailing) also thinks so, indefensible, dont try.
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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And that was illegal then and is now - so a protest would have solved it. Or is this another mythical GRF example.
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