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Blatant pumping in Olympic sailing - OK with that?
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Poll Question: Pumping is allowed in some Olympic classes, good or bad?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Blatant pumping in Olympic sailing - OK with that?
    Posted: 26 Dec 11 at 12:18pm
You are allowed to roll a boat to faciltate steering - but the roll must be commeasurate with the change of course.

The bow wave test is as good as any to decide whether the roll is for steering or for speed - asfor a roll tack if the boat chnages course and then acclerates up to straight line speed then there is no problme. If the boat accelerates then subseuently slows then the roll was propulsion, breaking rule  42.

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rogue View Drop Down
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 2:02pm
... mate, you're asking the wrong person. My view is as long as you're not firing up the Mariner on the back I don't have a problem with it... the RRS is such complex load of b**locks for most weekend sailing, I really don't think someone using kinetics in a so-say 'sport', should be highest on the priority list for 'banned action'.
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by rogue

well it seems quite clear there is zero clarity, therefore the rules as they stand are a complete arse.. the simple approach of either 'allow pumping' or 'no pumping' seems the only real way forward. Windsurf racing has evolved from this, some classes outright ban pumping- Kona One, whereas other are a pumpfest, Raceboard Class. If you can be bothered to race boards, you pick the appropriate class for your desires.

I think it's quite legitimate for a group of local sailors to say 'no pumping, no tolerance' to improve their own local enjoyment of the sailing, the same way a class association might ban it from their circuit events. Whereas the Olympics (thread relevant) to make the pumping unrestricted whatever the wind strength and indeed some performance classes, might also allow unrestricted pumping for their circuit ruleset.

It's fairly binary- anything other total ban or unrestricted pumping is impossible to police and just leads to confusion and frustration.

Ok, but how do you handle direction changes under a total ban? Are you allowed to roll the boat hard to windward to make it bear away, and hard to leeward to make it point up?
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rogue View Drop Down
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Posts: 978 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 12:51pm
well it seems quite clear there is zero clarity, therefore the rules as they stand are a complete arse.. the simple approach of either 'allow pumping' or 'no pumping' seems the only real way forward. Windsurf racing has evolved from this, some classes outright ban pumping- Kona One, whereas other are a pumpfest, Raceboard Class. If you can be bothered to race boards, you pick the appropriate class for your desires.

I think it's quite legitimate for a group of local sailors to say 'no pumping, no tolerance' to improve their own local enjoyment of the sailing, the same way a class association might ban it from their circuit events. Whereas the Olympics (thread relevant) to make the pumping unrestricted whatever the wind strength and indeed some performance classes, might also allow unrestricted pumping for their circuit ruleset.

It's fairly binary- anything other total ban or unrestricted pumping is impossible to police and just leads to confusion and frustration.

Edited by rogue - 22 Dec 11 at 12:54pm
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Roger View Drop Down
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Posts: 524 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by sargesail

The trouble is that rule 42 is not always understood/applied the same at different levels.  I have been accused of illegal actions as part of a course alteration which have been perfectly OK at juried and umpired events.  One can of course modify sailing style - but it's not quite as easy as that!  

One thing that is not well understood is that it is one pump per wave to "initiate" planing or surfing.  If these 2 are already occurring then even a single pump is illegal.  The observation of unrestricted pumping does blur this line.

Gordon - I do recall being spoken to once that I had been close to crossing this line during an event.  My own view was that although I was already planing I was also able to gain a further increase by initiating a surf which was assisted by a pump, and that therefore there was nothing out of order.  The Umpire (note Team-racing) had had enough doubt on it not to penalise me.  What would the latest guidance say?
 
I realise Gordon has already commented on this, but below is a snip from the post nationals Scorpion newsletter that seems to address this issue following questions at the event.
 
SNIP......
 
One interesting rules query emerged during the session resulting from the wind and wave configuration which had

been experienced earlier in the day. The wind speed was around 18-20 knots and waves of varying height. The

question was based on the interpretation of the exception rule 42.3(c) and was phrased as follows:

Situation 1: The conditions are wind 18-20 kts with waves of varying height. A boat has been planing for some

time and the plane was initiated by a gust without a pump. A new steep wave travelling faster than the boat catches

up with her and the boat pumps a sheet to initiate surfing. At no time does the boat cease planing. Is this situation

covered by the exception rule 42.3(c)?

Situation 2: The same except that the boat initiates planing by a sheet pump. Is this situation covered by the

exception rule 42.3(c)?

These situations were referred to Trevor Lewis, chair of the RYA Racing Rules Committee, who was unable to give an

immediate ruling. The situations were then sent to the RYA Rules Advisory service which sought the opinion of the

International Jury members who were on duty at the Olympic Test Event at Weymouth at the time. At the time of

writing a formal written reply is awaited from ISAF but I understand that the ruling will conclude that these situations

are not covered by the exception rule 42.3(c). In other words the terms planning and surfing are to be considered

collectively and once a boat is either planing or surfing a single pull on any sheet breaks rule 42. Well done to the

Scorpion fleet for bringing this query to the attention of the RYA and ISAF.

STOP PRESS

A reply has now been received from the RYA Rules Advisory Team in response to the rule 42 query above.

The answer to both situations is: No.

The explanation is as follows:

Even if a boat is planing (surfing) she may pump once for each wave or gust to initiate surfing (planing). It is not quite

so clear if the original planing (surfing) was also initiated by a pump on the same wave or gust.

However, if you are surfing and you pump to initiate planing, the pump will also help maintain the surfing and that is

not permitted. Similarly, if you are planing and you pump to initiate surfing, the pump will also help maintain the

planing and that is not permitted either.

So, while the words might permit the pump, in practice it is impossible to take advantage of the exception.

.....END SNIP
 
 
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 11:10am
My pov as a laser sailor is that the current "limited pumping" rules that we have are the best. While allowing unlimited kinetics makes the sport more athletic, I think it also makes it more forgiving when you get it wrong.

Under the current rules, if you're trying to catch a wave but you have the boat heeled at slightly the wrong angle, have to push the tiller a little too much, and you just start to catch it but are dropping off then you're doomed. You've missed it.  1 full wavelength lost.

With unlimited pumping you could just bounce on the deck a few times to stay on the wave and make up for your mistake - so you won't be punished as much for imperfect technique.

You would still of course have the better pumpers going faster, but being a less good pumper wouldn't be as bad as it is now.  At the moment you get one chance and one chance only, so it has to be perfect.

That said, if I were to pitch up at a quiet backwater club and go downwind like I do at a qualifier, I doubt anybody would speak to me in the bar afterwards despite all my actions being legal.  You also see less experienced sailors witness someone doing legal kinetics and retaliate with completely illegal kinetics because they don't understand the finer details of the rules.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 11:02am
Originally posted by gordon

In reply to Sargesail:

2. We spent a long time debating this at an event this year. We concluded that the rules seemed to allow a boat that was already planing to pump to initiate surfing, but that pump broke rule 42, because it would be a repeated pump in regard to planing! The Jury included 5 IJs, including Judges with experience of Olympics, Americas Cup ....

Gordon

To me this demonstrates why allowing unlimited pumping at the highest level is a good thing.  It took a lot of debate to come up with an interpretation and that interpretation was equivocal, allowing the action on one hand and not on another.  So lots of confusion even before you add a layer of perception.

But to look at the specifics of what you had said above and to clarify, if my original question wasn't clear enough, I am talking about a boat which is planing by action of the wind alone, which does a single pump to initiate surfing.  How is this "a repeated pump in regard to planing?"
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:25am

 
It would be interesting if g-meters were installed on a few raceboats to determine whether the effects of kinetics can be recorded or whether they just blend into the 'noise' of a boat bouncing through waves.  If changes can be determined then you have a scientific basis on which to modify rules.  Otherwise I am afriad it boils down to seamanship as you cannot monitor everyone on the water.
[/QUOTE]

Yes I'd love to run that experiment - and combine it with one where it is observed by IJs who press a button to indicate when they perceive an illegal "stroke of a paddle" movement. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:17am
The 300 is delightfully responsive to kinetics: one of its many virtues.
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tomoore1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 99 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tomoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:14am
I know when I sailed my 300 in waves that a pump was required to get surfing.  Once surfing the apparent wind went well forwards requiring rapid sheeting in followed by an equally large ease of the mainsheet as you dropped off the wave.  Perfectly within the rules however easily construed as pumping.

I have also been shouted at for pumping the 300 upwind.  Fact is that it is a very sensative boat that with my meagre 68-69kg at the time and the bigger rig required constant trimming in order to keep it heeled slightly to windward.

Then there is downwind in the 300.  It is a tippy boat and so you do roll around a bit, especially in changable winds.  Needless to say, when offered a sail in the boat, those complaining declined.

What I am saying, in a round about manner, is that in some situations perfectly legal movements are easily regarded as imparting kinetic energy into the boat.  As such I believe that totally banning pumping would be counter productive and encourage large championships to be shaped by protests.  The question is how far you allow kinetics to go. 
 
It would be interesting if g-meters were installed on a few raceboats to determine whether the effects of kinetics can be recorded or whether they just blend into the 'noise' of a boat bouncing through waves.  If changes can be determined then you have a scientific basis on which to modify rules.  Otherwise I am afriad it boils down to seamanship as you cannot monitor everyone on the water.
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