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    Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 10:50am
That is the crux of the matter IMO. He was entitled to race on, finished in 3rd, the PC found him to be not over the line (or at least, found there was no evidence that he was) and should therefore have been awarded 3rd place.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Contender443

I agree it should go to appeal just to prove the precedent.
 
However GC should really have left the race course when he knew about the BFD. That is the rules and he risked a DNE.
 
The race committee should encourage boats to leave the course. Then if there is a dispute then they can award average points. I guess that is one of the reasons why we have average points.
 
Well done to any boat that can prove they are not over the line especially one of the better sailors who will be bang on the line at the start. There must have been video evidence of this one.


There is nothing in 30.3 about leaving the course if you have been black flagged in that start.
It only applies if the race is re-started.
The race committee should only ask people to leave the course if their sail number is displayed as BFD before the warning signal.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Contender443

I agree it should go to appeal just to prove the precedent.
 
However GC should really have left the race course when he knew about the BFD. That is the rules and he risked a DNE.
 
The race committee should encourage boats to leave the course. Then if there is a dispute then they can award average points. I guess that is one of the reasons why we have average points.
 
Well done to any boat that can prove they are not over the line especially one of the better sailors who will be bang on the line at the start. There must have been video evidence of this one.
 
It was GC's perogative to sail the race and seek redress. That is why I'm of the opinion that BFD boats should not necessarily be 'coerced' into retiring. Having said that, I can also see that it leaves a situation open where a boat which knows it is BFD'd continues to 'race' and causes undue interference to other boats knowing that it has nothing to lose (that should be dealt with under rule 2/rule 69). It is perhaps better just to sail on in ignorance, as perhaps you might have done when OCS. It would only have been a (risked) DNE if GC had restarted following a general recall, he would have had a lot of balls to have done that. 
 
By accepting the BFD and retiring from the race/not starting the recalled race, the ONLY redress option open to the PC would have been average points rather than (in this case) a demonstrable finish position. The whole issue highlighted here is the fallibility of average points redress, which has demonstrated how it can in certain situations put the appealant at a distinct disadvantage, unlike a finish position which is definitive.
It should be good practice, that RC's record the 'finish' position/time for all boats on the racecourse even if they have recoded an OCS / BFD because the sailor theoretically has an avenue to seek redress.
 
Totally agree that this case HAS to go to appeal.   
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:35am
Originally posted by sargesail

This is one of those threads where the hot air level is above the norm.  I have not appealed for a while but IIRC 15 days was a time limit on notifying intent to appeal and then there was an additional period for preparation of the case.

It was not something that is taken on lightly, and it can be quite a complex thing to put together.

More to the point there needs to be a period for the Appeals Committee to read in to the case, and then get togther to make a decision IIRC it used to meet in teh Spring and Autumn - I guess that may be accelerated somewhat by the net - a virtual committee might be possible.

For what it's worth on this:

If 3rd as a result then it should have been used.  I believe that more than one set of third place points can be awarded - but in this case there is no need and the results should have been shuffled.

I have no problem with what Taxi did.  I'm with GybeFunny tho - one can't assume that Geoff would do the same.

Whatever the reason for the PC's decision there was an unintended consequence in that it created an opportunity to sail someone down the fleet which would not otherwise have existed.  I'm not sure that the PC (and I can't be bothered to check) can change it's decision to deal with this - it would have to reopen a hearing - which I think it can only do if there is new evidence presented.

The evidence is not the issue here - just the award.  I don't believe there was any mechanism open to Geoff other than appeal.  That takes time - not his fault that prizes must be awarded.

And I believe that if any of that is true it is really important that there is an appeal in order to set CAse Law in place for both the specific of a redress which has an unintended consequence, and the general for the mechanism to deal with inappropriate redress.

For the record my Appeal changed the results of the Champs.  It did not affect my own result.  I do not want to go into the detail - it was a technical issue, but more than 20 years on I am still proud of the fact that I did the right thing as a young man.
 
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 9:15am
I agree it should go to appeal just to prove the precedent.
 
However GC should really have left the race course when he knew about the BFD. That is the rules and he risked a DNE.
 
The race committee should encourage boats to leave the course. Then if there is a dispute then they can award average points. I guess that is one of the reasons why we have average points.
 
Well done to any boat that can prove they are not over the line especially one of the better sailors who will be bang on the line at the start. There must have been video evidence of this one.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 8:52pm
This is one of those threads where the hot air level is above the norm.  I have not appealed for a while but IIRC 15 days was a time limit on notifying intent to appeal and then there was an additional period for preparation of the case.

It was not something that is taken on lightly, and it can be quite a complex thing to put together.

More to the point there needs to be a period for the Appeals Committee to read in to the case, and then get togther to make a decision IIRC it used to meet in teh Spring and Autumn - I guess that may be accelerated somewhat by the net - a virtual committee might be possible.

For what it's worth on this:

If 3rd as a result then it should have been used.  I believe that more than one set of third place points can be awarded - but in this case there is no need and the results should have been shuffled.

I have no problem with what Taxi did.  I'm with GybeFunny tho - one can't assume that Geoff would do the same.

Whatever the reason for the PC's decision there was an unintended consequence in that it created an opportunity to sail someone down the fleet which would not otherwise have existed.  I'm not sure that the PC (and I can't be bothered to check) can change it's decision to deal with this - it would have to reopen a hearing - which I think it can only do if there is new evidence presented.

The evidence is not the issue here - just the award.  I don't believe there was any mechanism open to Geoff other than appeal.  That takes time - not his fault that prizes must be awarded.

And I believe that if any of that is true it is really important that there is an appeal in order to set CAse Law in place for both the specific of a redress which has an unintended consequence, and the general for the mechanism to deal with inappropriate redress.

For the record my Appeal changed the results of the Champs.  It did not affect my own result.  I do not want to go into the detail - it was a technical issue, but more than 20 years on I am still proud of the fact that I did the right thing as a young man.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Sheetpuller

Meh.  Can you even begin to imagine the size of the worms crawling out of the can if the result is overturned?  

Won't be the first time its happened. Won't be the last. Its how things work: that's what's in the rulebook.
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sheetpuller

Notwithstanding that, there can be no argument as to who won the championship;

'xactly so. No-one has won it yet. Its subject to appeal.
Wrong, and this exactly why there should be a time limit on appeals. Taxi won and has the trophies because he was declared the winner at the prizegiving.
 
Had an appeal been lodged immediately the results would have been declared to be subject to appeal, prizes would not have been awarded and we would not be having this farce or at least not the same one. They fact remains that they were happy with the redress granted until after the final race.


Edited by Paramedic - 10 Nov 11 at 7:55pm
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Posts: 403 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GybeFunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by seamonkey

Originally posted by JimC


I thought not necessarily the way I would have done it was a lovely piece of phrasing, and I don't find it hard to read within the lines.


yeah right ... as if ... had the situation been reversed GC would have done EXACTLY the same thing.

Anyone with a winning killer instict would have done that; we have seen loads of examples of last race match racing and this case is no different.

Do you know Geoff well enough to know he would have done the same thing? I think not.

I dont claim to know him but I have competed in other events against him. I attended the 2009 RS200 nationals in Looe a few years ago, Geoff was leading coming in to the last day but could still be caught by James Peters. I think he could have match raced James out but chose not to. As it turned out James was way down the pan and Geoff was near the front so Geoff won it. Maybe he is just the type of guy who doesn’t want to match race?
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sheetpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sheetpuller

Notwithstanding that, there can be no argument as to who won the championship;

'xactly so. No-one has won it yet. Its subject to appeal.
 
Meh.  Can you even begin to imagine the size of the worms crawling out of the can if the result is overturned?   Andy Davies won it - if that were to be reversed and the championship awarded to CG it could only be done on the basis of supposition as to what would have happened afterward. I suppose they could strip Taxi of the title and not award it to anyone, but in my opinion that would be just silly.
 
As previously stated, I think the protest committee was wrong not to reinstate GC in his finishing position - but it's done.  It's a genie that isn't going back in the bottle.  All that can be done now is to establish a precedent for future cases.
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