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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: taking a windward mark too wide
    Posted: 24 Jul 11 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Interesting break down there, I agree with a lot of what is said here, but interpret the rules slightly differently perhaps.  I would not say that having passed the mark and gybing back towards it that A is sailing to the mark, in fact A is sailing to the next mark of the course, yes she is sailing towards the windward mark again but is NOT sailing to it. Remember that B is not expected to anticipate the sudden gybe of A, the diagram shows A sailing a reasonable distance before making this gybe and in many classes of dinghy and yacht this could be a plenty large enough gap to take.

Correct me if I am wrong, my rules knowledge is fairly strong but without a rulebook in front of me quoting rules word for word or by number is beyond my memory LOL
 

You say ‘as I remember ...'.  It seems to me that your remembrance might be based on the 2005-2008 rules.

Under those old rules, rule 18 applied from when boats were ‘about to round or pass a mark’ until ‘they have passed it’.

The zone did not affect whether rule 18 applied or not.  The zone only affected whether a boat clear ahead or an inside overlapped boat gained right of way, overriding the ordinary right of way rules or had a continuing right to room.  These entitlements switched off when the rule as a whole switched off.

There were cases which made it clear that a boat had ‘passed’ the mark when it had left the mark clear astern, thus there could be a time when boats were still in the zone, but rule 18 had ceased to apply.  Contrary to your recollection, the rule did not switch off until both boats had passed the mark.

I think your recollection of the old rules, and your mis-recollection about rule 18 switching off when only one of the boats had passed the mark may have influenced your ideas about the way new rule 18 works.

The new 2009 rules take a different approach.  Rule 18 now applies between boats whenever at least one of them is in the zone.

This paper about the 2009 rules was prepared by one of the drafters

http://yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Technical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Section%20C%20Rules.pdf

It tells us that there was no ‘game change’ intended for rule 18.

Note that, applying the 2008 rules to the situation in the diagram in this thread, Boat A, having reached the zone clear ahead, had right of way over Boat B, until both boats had passed the mark.

There are some other references about ‘to the mark’.

MR Call Ump 43

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/MRCallBooksupplementfor2011booklet-[9673].pdf

says that a boat is sailing _to_ the mark when[ever] she is sailing a course towards the mark that will leave the mark on the required side, until she is _at_ the mark.

US Sailing Appeal 105

http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Assets/Race+Admin/Appeals/Appeal+105+%2810-03%29.pdf

 says “The phrase “room to sail to the mark” in the definition Mark-Room means space to sail in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark”

Q&A 2009-022

http://www.sailing.org/27411.php

Answer 1 If the boat entitled to mark-room has right of way, she is free to sail any course [to the mark] within the limitations of the rules of Part 2, Section B, and, if it applies, rule 18.4.



Edited by Brass - 25 Jul 11 at 1:03am
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Brass

Yes, once A is past the mark and no longer 'at the mark' she ceases to meet the condition prescribed in rule 18.5 for her to be entitled to exoneration for breaking a part 2 rule.  Rule 18,2(b), however, continues to apply, while ever Boat A remains in the zone (rule 18.2(c)), and if A once again sails 'to the mark' or becomes 'at the mark', Boat B must, again, give A mark-room.
 
A, having gybed onto Port is not in the wrong unless she fails to keep clear of B and somehow or other is not sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark'.  In all probability, if A is 'reapproaching the mark' she is sailing 'to the mark' and entitled to mark-room to do so.   Once A is 'at the mark', provided her proper course is to luff, she may luff as hard as she likes, because rule 18.5 expressly gives her exoneration for breaking rule 16.   A is absolutely entitled to 'slam the door' on B.
 
I don't agree that it is best to visualise rules applying to 'large yachts':  probably better to envisage small racing keelboats, 20 to 30 feet, or larger, heavier dinghies, as what the original rule developers had in mind, although the racing rules committees are ever mindful of small dinghies (and giant multi-hulls). 
 
I agree that it is sensible to try to understand what the rule developers had in mind. 
 
In this case though, is there any evidence (in the casebook etc) that the rule developers intended that a boat could be sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark' more than once in any single rounding of a mark? 
 
Hasn't a boat passed a mark, once that mark stops affecting the boat's course? - if so, then once a boat has stopped being 'at the mark' for "mark n", it is then surely sailing to the next mark of the course("mark n+1") and not back to "mark n"?
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 12:24am
Originally posted by jeffers

The problem was that Brass stated that 'Usually only a large shipping buoy....' without qualifying the statement. (Hence to comment about large land masses which was definitely tongue in cheek and my comment about other smaller obstructions).
  
Not everyone (myself included) has the time to read all the definitions. To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.
 
Sorry Paul,
I may, in quoting Brass, have inadvertently taken away the context of 'racing marks being obstructions' (nothing to do with 'obstructions' in any other way).
My tongue in cheek comment about the large land mass, was made knowing that Cape Horn is a course mark in round the world yacht races. I guess if I had used the Fastnet rock lighthouse instead, it may have been better understood.
Andy Mc.
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by laser193713

I have always understood it that once A is past the mark, no longer overlapped with it, they lose all protection from rule 18 and then B becomes ROW boat in that situation.  At the end of the day it is A that has gybed onto port while B may still have been on starboard so A is in the wrong then.  If A luffs B hard then B has to avoid the mark which is an obstruction so A must give B room to do so as she is now reapproaching the mark. 

I always think it is easier to picture mark rules when the boats are large yachts rather than dinghies.  It is so easy in dinghies to get off a mark when hooked but imagine the consequences for a yacht doing this and getting forced onto a mark, particularly a metal racing mark. If A was to steer a course as shown they could be penalised for deliberately causing a collision if there was one because of the massive angle they have steered through in such a short space of time.
Yes, once A is past the mark and no longer 'at the mark' she ceases to meet the condition prescribed in rule 18.5 for her to be entitled to exoneration for breaking a part 2 rule.  Rule 18,2(b), however, continues to apply, while ever Boat A remains in the zone (rule 18.2(c)), and if A once again sails 'to the mark' or becomes 'at the mark', Boat B must, again, give A mark-room.
 
A, having gybed onto Port is not in the wrong unless she fails to keep clear of B and somehow or other is not sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark'.  In all probability, if A is 'reapproaching the mark' she is sailing 'to the mark' and entitled to mark-room to do so.   Once A is 'at the mark', provided her proper course is to luff, she may luff as hard as she likes, because rule 18.5 expressly gives her exoneration for breaking rule 16.   A is absolutely entitled to 'slam the door' on B.
 
Why do you say the mark is an obstruction?  OP provided no evidence to suggest that it was.  It should not be assumed that every mark is an obstruction.  Normally racing marks, even of they are of metal or other solid construction, will be so designed that they are small enough that a boat one of her hull lengths from the mark would not need to change course substantially to pass and thus they do not meet the definition of Obstruction in the rules.  Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
 
Whether the mark is an obstruction or not is somewhat irrelevant, even if it was an obstruction, while ever at least one of Boats A or B is in the zone, rule 18 continues to apply (rule 18.1), and when rule 18 applies, rule 19 does not (rule 19.1), except where the mark is a continuing obstruction (rule 18.1(c)).
 
If A is taking mark-room to which she is entitled at the mark, her only 'unexoneratable' obligation, for which she can be penalised, is to avoid contact with B causing damage or injury (rule 14(b)).  If there was contact between A and B without damage at the point of contact but which forced B into contact with a mark which caused damage to B (whether the mark was an obstruction or not:  say a fitting on the mark gouged B's topsides), then A would have broken rule 14 and, on valid protest, would be liable to a penalty.
 
There is no rule against 'causing a collision'.  I suggest that, when discussing the rules, it is best to try to use the language of the rules themselves.  It prevents misunderstandings.
 
I don't agree that it is best to visualise rules applying to 'large yachts':  probably better to envisage small racing keelboats, 20 to 30 feet, or larger, heavier dinghies, as what the original rule developers had in mind, although the racing rules committees are ever mindful of small dinghies (and giant multi-hulls). 


Interesting break down there, I agree with a lot of what is said here, but interpret the rules slightly differently perhaps.  I would not say that having passed the mark and gybing back towards it that A is sailing to the mark, in fact A is sailing to the next mark of the course, yes she is sailing towards the windward mark again but is NOT sailing to it. Remember that B is not expected to anticipate the sudden gybe of A, the diagram shows A sailing a reasonable distance before making this gybe and in many classes of dinghy and yacht this could be a plenty large enough gap to take.

Correct me if I am wrong, my rules knowledge is fairly strong but without a rulebook in front of me quoting rules word for word or by number is beyond my memory LOL
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed

Yes, yes, [sigh]. There is a specific definition of what an obstruction is in the rules, and its all about the size of the object. Most racing marks are smaller than boats and large patches of weed.

Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.


The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.
Thanks JimC, I was talking aboout buoys or marks that might or might not be obstructions.
 
Of course right of way boats or larege pieces of South America can be obstructions.
 
The reason that the Definitions are at the back fo the RRS books is so that they are easier to find:  just flip to the last page and there they are.  If you have ever used the Elvstrom Explains books where they are at the front of the rules, but behind the title pages, contents etc, you will understand the difficulty.
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by jeffers

To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.

Common sense will get you in trouble. Its easily possible for a racing mark to be an obstruction.

The definitions are there specifically because the ordinary english sense of the words may be unclear or contradictory. To be brutally honest if you are saying you are too busy to read the definitions you are saying you are too busy to read the rules, because its not possible to understand some of the rules adequately without knowing the definitions they rely on.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 12:42pm
The problem was that Brass stated that 'Usually only a large shipping buoy....' without qualifying the statement. (Hence to comment about large land masses which was definitely tongue in cheek and my comment about other smaller obstructions).
  
Not everyone (myself included) has the time to read all the definitions. To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.
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Posts: 409 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 11:54am
Originally posted by JimC



The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.
 
 
Totally agree.  If you don't know what the words mean how can you understand the rules?
 
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 9:51am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.

[---]Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed

Yes, yes, [sigh]. There is a specific definition of what an obstruction is in the rules, and its all about the size of the object. Most racing marks are smaller than boats and large patches of weed.

Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.


The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.

Edited by JimC - 22 Jul 11 at 9:53am
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
 
Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed therefore you are allowed to call for 'room' to avoid that obstruction (which include tacking in certain circumstances, see the thread that has the 'Rainmaker' discussion...
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