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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Start?
    Posted: 17 May 11 at 2:30pm
An allegation that rule 2 has been breachedshould be protested in the normal way.

However, much like rule 14, it will often be the protest committee that decides, in the course of hearing a protest, that rule 2 has been breached. Once a protest is declared valid, the protest committee establishes facts and decides, on the basis of those facts, which rule, if any, has been broken. They are not limited to judging if a rule invoked on the protest form has been broken. Indeed, it happens often that it is the protestor who ends up being penalised.

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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 2:00pm
What's the procedure for Rule 2 (and other fundamental rule) hearings? I just skimmed the rules and didn't see much (unlike 69). Are the time limits and notification the same as a part 3 protest?
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:40pm
Protests under rule 2 or hearings under rule 69 (both could be appropriate) would in this case be most often associated with another protest under rule 28.

If the protest committee establishes as a fact that a boat not only did not sail the course, but did so deliberately with the intention of gaining an advantage, then they may decide to penalise under rule 2, for having violated  recognised principles of sportsmanship or fair play, or initiate a rule 69 hearing for the gross breach of a rule. The protest under rule 28 serves to establish the infringement.

One advantage of rule 69 is that there is considerable flexibility in the penalty, which can vary from a warning to a life-long ban from sailing anywhere in the world.

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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by gordon

....
- there is no limit on the right of a boat to retire - in club racing a quiet word from the race committee and a request to be scored RAF is an effective and "lega" way of dealing with the problem. Merely scoring the bopat DNF or DSQ is neither effective nor legal

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Scoring as DNF may not be legal, but it's effective. Effectively the same as the boat retiring, as the points are the same.
Assuming there is no dispute as to what courses were actually sailed. If there is a dispute there needs to be a protest.
 
In the appeal case you refer to, I get the impression the appellant claimed to have sailed the course correctly. It's an old case, was the def'n of finish the same then?
I'd like to think no-one would go to appeal knowing they'd missed out a lap.
 


Edited by RS400atC - 17 May 11 at 1:43pm
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Originally posted by furtive

Originally posted by asterix

well it depends on how you interpret 'last mark' because that could be interpreted as 'the mark before the finish line after the specified number of laps'. 
 
But I do wonder if a boat could miss several marks, sail close to the finish line, do several penalty turns (to make up for missing the marks) and then finish in a quicker time than sailing the race 'properly' would take?
 
I would think it was unfair conduct (RRS 2), but how would that be protested or determined?
Doing penalty turns does not "make up" for missing a mark or marks.
 
Thanks - I agree with you - I realise now that penalty turns apply to Part 2 and that RRS28 is in Part 3.
 
But, I would still be interested to know how a protest under RRS 2 would happen and how it would be determined.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:49pm
To reply to several points:

- the last mark on a multiple lap or complicated course is the mark that is to be rounded last in the  order defined by the SIs. Thus a course on a river that was Start, 1,2,3,1,2,3 Finish mark 3 is only the last mark the second time round - even if boats have to sail through the finish line to sail from 3 to 1. The blue flag is flown to show that the finishing line is open.

- rule 44.1 does not allow a boat to take a 2 turn penalty for breaking rule 28 (not sailing the course. The only way to repair the error is to return and sail the correct course.

- a boat that requests redress because they have been scored DNF or DSQ by a Race Committee that they have not sailed the score correctly should be reinstated.  See Case 80 which deals with just such an incident. A hearing must be limited to the protest or request that is put to the jury. You cannot disqualify a boat for breaking a rule after a redress hearing.

- there is no limit on the right of a boat to retire - in club racing a quiet word from the race committee and a request to be scored RAF is an effective and "lega" way of dealing with the problem. Merely scoring the bopat DNF or DSQ is neither effective nor legal

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Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by asterix

well it depends on how you interpret 'last mark' because that could be interpreted as 'the mark before the finish line after the specified number of laps'. 
 
But I do wonder if a boat could miss several marks, sail close to the finish line, do several penalty turns (to make up for missing the marks) and then finish in a quicker time than sailing the race 'properly' would take?
 
I would think it was unfair conduct (RRS 2), but how would that be protested or determined?
Doing penalty turns does not "make up" for missing a mark or marks.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by gordon

Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

If the Race Committee does disqualify a boat incorrectly then the boat is entitled to redress because of the incorrect action of the committee. The redress hearing will only be deciding if the RC's action was correct. The competitor should be reinstated. If the RC then protests they would have to explain why the protest is outside the time limit. "Because we don't know the rules" should not be an adequate excuse.

Gordon
No, I don't think so.
The protest committee would decide that the boat asking for redress had broken a rule by not sailing the course and would disqualify the boat.
 
Also asking for redress knowing you had not sailed the course would not be fair sailing.
If you dispute the course or honestly claim you have sailed it that's obviously different.
Also, another competitor could protest as soon as they heard the boat not sailing the course had been re-instated?
 
In our club, as soon as we come ashore and it becomes aparent who has not sailed the course, they effectively retire. We may be slightly out of line in listing them as DNF but the points are the same.
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Posts: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SalsaPirates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by gordon

Race Officers cannot disqualify a boat - they can only give the penalties laid out in Rule A5, which are limited to incidents at the start or finish line.

If it is alleged that a boat has  not sailed the correct course then a hearing is required (see rule 28.1).

Gordon
 
An interesting kettle of fish and variety of opinions.  Many thanks for the clarity Gordon ...  makes sense and your response is aligned to what I thought the answer should be, however a point of further clarity please. 
When you say 'a hearing is required' ....  at club level, I guess this means either Race team can protest under 60.2 (a) (provided they actually witnessed it and are not working on third hand information) or can utilise the RYA advisory hearing procedure (if adopted into club SI's) and assign an appropriate exoneration penalty?
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Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 11 at 11:24am
well it depends on how you interpret 'last mark' because that could be interpreted as 'the mark before the finish line after the specified number of laps'. 
 
But I do wonder if a boat could miss several marks, sail close to the finish line, do several penalty turns (to make up for missing the marks) and then finish in a quicker time than sailing the race 'properly' would take?
 
I would think it was unfair conduct (RRS 2), but how would that be protested or determined?


Edited by asterix - 17 May 11 at 11:27am
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