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Carbon or not Carbon

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Dan Vincent View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Jun 10 at 5:02pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Dan Vincent

So unless tightly controlled (as in a SMOD such as... D1, Musto, RS800) expect change to carbon masts to be accompanied by costs not just increasing but multiplying.

Can you point to a non-Olympic class where that's happened?

I don't want to be accused of class-bashing, but OKs definitely went from being cheaper than a Solo, to more expensive than a Solo when they introduced carbon masts. As someone who was considering buying both at the time the uncertainty and speculation about manufacturers like Ceileidh (spellcheck) who may be able to produce super quick (but very expensive masts) in moulds, with inflatable bladders and high modulus fibres blah-blah, drove me towards the Solo option. 

I am sure that many OK sailors think going to carbon masts was a good move, and has made the boats better, but from outside the class it is difficult to see what has been gained.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote charlie w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 10 at 1:50pm

Hiya Rick,

505s; lead to them being banned and they still are ... which seems a shame to put a tin rig ona full carbon hull.

-------

A few observations from within the 505 fleet.  Some people in the fleet love the idea of carbon, others less so.

How much quicker would the boats be with carbon?  Probably best to look at the FD's for a guide.

Best guess is that pitching moment and gust return are the only 2 reasons why the whole package would be quicker.  Maybe 2% quicker - when sailed in waves.

On top of that, the ability to repair broken rigs is a great benefit, coz there are places in the world that suffer from a lack of masts.  At least you can stick a carbon rig back together.

However, rigging and prepping a mast in carbon takes about twice as long as an Ali equivalent.  In a class where everyone has a different control lines layout, that would cost a fortune to prepare.  At least with Ali, you can make it fit with a hacksaw, rivet gun, drill etc.

CW

Quality never goes out of fashion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by MerlinMags

I seem to end up manufacturing an awful lot of carbon these days, what with a sudden inability to keep an eye on the toast under the grill. If I could only work out how to convert that to £100 a kilo...

Sorry, lets get back on topic. I guess the £1500 cost for a Merlin mast is the large amount of time it takes to lay it up carefully in exactly the right way.

Hard to see it ever being done by machines....?


I think you'll be suprised by what can be done with automated layup machines and filament winders. Also you can guarentee the lay-up on the automated systems, but in reality its down to economies of scale. A manufacturer isnt going to tool up with all the hi-tech auto kit if every mast he's going to make is required to be individually tailored to the buyer, but if you can get a large order for masts with exactly the same characteristics then it should be feasible to get the price down to the kind of price you'd pay for aluminium.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 8:28pm
I seem to end up manufacturing an awful lot of carbon these days, what with a sudden inability to keep an eye on the toast under the grill. If I could only work out how to convert that to £100 a kilo...

Sorry, lets get back on topic. I guess the £1500 cost for a Merlin mast is the large amount of time it takes to lay it up carefully in exactly the right way.

Hard to see it ever being done by machines....?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 1:34pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by MerlinMags

But oh, the cost!!! Someone sort that out, would ya?

Well, all you need to do is sort out the cost of oil and energy and the price will drop like a stone...

 

Not really.

Carbon is about £100 a kilo, epoxy £20 a kg, so the raw material for a mast is a pretty small part of it. what does a bare merlin mast weigh? <4kg I think, so perhaps 2kg carbon, 2kg resin or £240 ish. The value is in putting it together right! Only mass production will drop the prices.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by MerlinMags

But oh, the cost!!! Someone sort that out, would ya?

Well, all you need to do is sort out the cost of oil and energy and the price will drop like a stone...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 11:21am

Originally posted by MerlinMags

I like the way carbon masts don't just benefit the top sailors. For the back-of-the-fleet fools like me:

Easier to manage boat in strong winds without a big weight waving around in the sky above you

Gust response - again makes life easier in the blowy stuff

But oh, the cost!!! Someone sort that out, would ya?

 

Are Carbon masts really that expensive??  Most masts are retailing around £1000-£1500.  I think if you compare them to the cost of a set of sails they seem like good value.  Although i can appreciate if your pride and joy is an older model and not worth a great deal (money wse) that can seem like a hell of a lot of cash!!  But there seem to be more second hand or broken masts available on the market nowerdays and these seem to be forsale for around £500 making carbon affordable for the masses.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 10 at 9:39am
I like the way carbon masts don't just benefit the top sailors. For the back-of-the-fleet fools like me:

Easier to manage boat in strong winds without a big weight waving around in the sky above you

Gust response - again makes life easier in the blowy stuff

But oh, the cost!!! Someone sort that out, would ya?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 10 at 10:20am
The lightning is an interesting case in point. When the Needlespar Ali mast was no longer available, the best way to get a mast where the bend matched was to go for a carbon top section. The bend characteristics are close enough that both dacron and mylar sails work on both masts equally well. Open meeting results show a mixture of mast types and sail cloth types, with no one thing dominating.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 10 at 10:02am
My little Byte mast is a brilliant piece of engineering. It bends progressively into an even but  increasing curve. I presume that this is achieved by the type of weave and mix of fibers. However this mast is brand new, the chap who sold me the boat preferred to keep his original mast which bent off more at the top and has a finer weave , so he gave me the new one. Since he is a brilliant sailor and I am considerably less than that we are unable to make any performance comparison. However the "boy" borrowed my boat on a windy day recently and they scored one win each. The "boys" Lightning mast, alloy/carbon  seems very soft and bends all over the place but he still wins a lot. Perhaps we are being a bit pernickity. Good sailors can adapt their style to suit mast characteristics. 
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