Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Carbon or not Carbon |
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Dan Vincent ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 21 Nov 07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 45 |
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I don't want to be accused of class-bashing, but OKs definitely went from being cheaper than a Solo, to more expensive than a Solo when they introduced carbon masts. As someone who was considering buying both at the time the uncertainty and speculation about manufacturers like Ceileidh (spellcheck) who may be able to produce super quick (but very expensive masts) in moulds, with inflatable bladders and high modulus fibres blah-blah, drove me towards the Solo option. I am sure that many OK sailors think going to carbon masts was a good move, and has made the boats better, but from outside the class it is difficult to see what has been gained. |
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charlie w ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 31 Oct 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
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Hiya Rick, 505s; lead to them being banned and they still are ... which seems a shame to put a tin rig ona full carbon hull. ------- A few observations from within the 505 fleet. Some people in the fleet love the idea of carbon, others less so. How much quicker would the boats be with carbon? Probably best to look at the FD's for a guide. Best guess is that pitching moment and gust return are the only 2 reasons why the whole package would be quicker. Maybe 2% quicker - when sailed in waves. On top of that, the ability to repair broken rigs is a great benefit, coz there are places in the world that suffer from a lack of masts. At least you can stick a carbon rig back together. However, rigging and prepping a mast in carbon takes about twice as long as an Ali equivalent. In a class where everyone has a different control lines layout, that would cost a fortune to prepare. At least with Ali, you can make it fit with a hacksaw, rivet gun, drill etc. CW |
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Quality never goes out of fashion.
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craiggo ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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I think you'll be suprised by what can be done with automated layup machines and filament winders. Also you can guarentee the lay-up on the automated systems, but in reality its down to economies of scale. A manufacturer isnt going to tool up with all the hi-tech auto kit if every mast he's going to make is required to be individually tailored to the buyer, but if you can get a large order for masts with exactly the same characteristics then it should be feasible to get the price down to the kind of price you'd pay for aluminium. |
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MerlinMags ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Mar 04 Location: UK, Guildford Online Status: Offline Posts: 588 |
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I seem to end up manufacturing an awful lot of carbon these days, what with a sudden inability to keep an eye on the toast under the grill. If I could only work out how to convert that to £100 a kilo...
Sorry, lets get back on topic. I guess the £1500 cost for a Merlin mast is the large amount of time it takes to lay it up carefully in exactly the right way. Hard to see it ever being done by machines....? |
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Not really. Carbon is about £100 a kilo, epoxy £20 a kg, so the raw material for a mast is a pretty small part of it. what does a bare merlin mast weigh? <4kg I think, so perhaps 2kg carbon, 2kg resin or £240 ish. The value is in putting it together right! Only mass production will drop the prices. |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Well, all you need to do is sort out the cost of oil and energy and the price will drop like a stone... |
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Merlinboy ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169 |
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Are Carbon masts really that expensive?? Most masts are retailing around £1000-£1500. I think if you compare them to the cost of a set of sails they seem like good value. Although i can appreciate if your pride and joy is an older model and not worth a great deal (money wse) that can seem like a hell of a lot of cash!! But there seem to be more second hand or broken masts available on the market nowerdays and these seem to be forsale for around £500 making carbon affordable for the masses. |
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MerlinMags ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Mar 04 Location: UK, Guildford Online Status: Offline Posts: 588 |
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I like the way carbon masts don't just benefit the top sailors. For the back-of-the-fleet fools like me:
Easier to manage boat in strong winds without a big weight waving around in the sky above you Gust response - again makes life easier in the blowy stuff But oh, the cost!!! Someone sort that out, would ya? |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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The lightning is an interesting case in point. When the Needlespar Ali mast was no longer available, the best way to get a mast where the bend matched was to go for a carbon top section. The bend characteristics are close enough that both dacron and mylar sails work on both masts equally well. Open meeting results show a mixture of mast types and sail cloth types, with no one thing dominating.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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tickler ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Jun 07 Location: Tunstead Milton Online Status: Offline Posts: 895 |
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My little Byte mast is a brilliant piece of engineering. It bends progressively into an even but increasing curve. I presume that this is achieved by the type of weave and mix of fibers. However this mast is brand new, the chap who sold me the boat preferred to keep his original mast which bent off more at the top and has a finer weave , so he gave me the new one. Since he is a brilliant sailor and I am considerably less than that we are unable to make any performance comparison. However the "boy" borrowed my boat on a windy day recently and they scored one win each. The "boys" Lightning mast, alloy/carbon seems very soft and bends all over the place but he still wins a lot. Perhaps we are being a bit pernickity. Good sailors can adapt their style to suit mast characteristics.
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