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Class Rules in Club Races.

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 May 10 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Brass

(or is that really a J4?)


Here's a J4 (waterline length).


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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 10 at 7:54am
It is a J24, and is in class. Does well in the OD events as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 10 at 7:10am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Brass

J24 getting individually measured and non-class IRC certificates? Surely you jest?
Not sure if you are jesting or not but I'll give a serious answer. Once upon a time it was common for OD classes to race class-compliant with a single IRC rating e.g. the Sigma/33 and Sigma/38 fleets. That is now rare. The reason is that a boat can almost invariably get a more favourable rating but measuring individually. There are several reasons for that including:

1. they get more age allowance that way

2. it is normal for boats to weigh more than the designers figure on which the OD rating is based

The now-defunct Prima 38 class in the UK led the way regarding an OD fleet using individual certificates, the briefly successful and near-OD X332 class followed and the markedly differing IRC ratings gained by allegedly OD J/120s has been a subject of controversy in the USA. 

As for what J24s do in IRC, haven't a clue. It's nearly 20 years since I battered myself on those and that was in the now-defunct Solent OD fleet

Thanks for the considered reply.  I can understand the approach for the 'wholesome C/R' that IRC likes, in the 33ft and upwards range, but I would have thought that the J24 would suffer an awful hull factor so as to not make even attempting IRC worthwhile, let alone the trouble and expense of individual measurement:  I presume a class boat must be measured and weighted as for an 'endorsed' certificate to get a rating different from the class rating.

Originally posted by gordon

There is one J4 in Ireland, skippered by Flor O'Driscoll that is always at the front of the fleet - winning last years Dun Laoghaire Regatta in Class 3 on both IRC and ECHO. Boat was declared boat of the regatta. Did the same thing at Irish Cruiser Champs the year before.

But Gordon proves me wrong:  J24 can win on IRC (or is that really a J4?)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 10 at 1:20pm
There is one J4 in Ireland, skippered by Flor O'Driscoll that is always at the front of the fleet - winning last years Dun Laoghaire Regatta in Class 3 on both IRC and ECHO. Boat was declared boat of the regatta. Did the same thing at Irish Cruiser Champs the year before.

Gordon

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 10 at 6:21am
Originally posted by Brass

J24 getting individually measured and non-class IRC certificates?

Surely you jest?

Not sure if you are jesting or not but I'll give a serious answer. Once upon a time it was common for OD classes to race class-compliant with a single IRC rating e.g. the Sigma/33 and Sigma/38 fleets. That is now rare. The reason is that a boat can almost invariably get a more favourable rating but measuring individually. There are several reasons for that including:

1. they get more age allowance that way

2. it is normal for boats to weigh more than the designers figure on which the OD rating is based

The now-defunct Prima 38 class in the UK led the way regarding an OD fleet using individual certificates, the briefly successful and near-OD X332 class followed and the markedly differing IRC ratings gained by allegedly OD J/120s has been a subject of controversy in the USA. 

As for what J24s do in IRC, haven't a clue. It's nearly 20 years since I battered myself on those and that was in the now-defunct Solent OD fleet.




Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 10 at 8:29am

Originally posted by Rockhopper

The rs racing rules which we use at events says that we can hit marks and not do turns but in club , handicap racing you cannot hit the marks after doing a few events you get used to it .

The "hitting marks" rule is a standard Sailing Instruction, not a Class Rule, as far as I understand it. I don't think it is something that can actually be modified by Class Rules, but can by SIs.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 10 at 8:17am
The rs racing rules which we use at events says that we can hit marks and not do turns but in club , handicap racing you cannot hit the marks after doing a few events you get used to it .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 10 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

"Buttercup, a J/24, raced in the handicapped class. Did the J/24 Class Rules or the handicap system rules apply to her?"

This is a very common situation in yacht racing e.g. an OD racing in an IRC handicap class and these days it is normal for such a boat to have its own individual IRC rating rather than sharing an OD class rating. Only in the latter case would class-rules compliance be required. Thus you will commonly see a number of OD boats within a class having slightly different handicaps e.g. reflecting different age allowances, measured sail sizes or hull weights.

J24 getting individually measured and non-class IRC certificates?

Surely you jest?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 2:55pm

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


At club level the order of the day should be to get people racing, not to make it harder or more expensive for them to race. The single most important thing a club can do is to get more people racing. At open & championship level, compliance to class rules is a must.

 

Agree, it seems a tricky issue. How do clubs implement the rules without alienating people.  Most rule bending breaking is probably a result of ignorance or economy but some experienced sailors knowingly do it for performance gain........I suppose it's a judgment call when dealing with it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

it is not the custom or practice in handicapping to penalise those who purchase new sails.

That depends... Not at the moment in dinghies, but in earlier days when folk were less affluent it was by no means unusual for classes to have restrictions on the number of sails that could be purchased, nor is it that unusual in keelboat classes...


I was talking about adjustment of handicaps. There are keelboat classes that restrict sail purchases for class racing. To the best of my knowledge there are no handicap classes that do so. IRC, which is of course the dominant measurement rule in the UK, restricts the number of sails that can be carried but has nothing to say about the frequency with which they are purchased.
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