Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Who's right of way at Leeward Mark? |
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damp_freddie ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
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I think gordon touches a good point here-
i presume that the other boat was either 1) more experienced and arrogant enough to try it on 2)cheeky, aggressive ignorant....what ever their experience 3) misinterpreted the situation In cases one and two then a call on rule 18 and dispute over their 'room to keep clear' would be nicely followed up with a protest under rule 2- enough to DSQ them from a series if I remember case history! What ever, as in down-the-pub assault cases or COLREG incidents at sea, it is worth counter protesting and teaching the blighter the use of the room and the bitter taste of DSQ on revised results. |
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gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Brass, the rules are there to ensure that sailing is a safe, non-contact sport.
I agree that a boat that is not entitled to room has no rights if they try to force a passage. If in doing so they sail themselves into a solid object such as a steel navigation mark that is being used as a mark that is their problem. However, the boat entitled to room does have an obligation to avoid contact, and should not deliberately sail in such a way that the "passage forcing" boat is faced with either hitting a boat or the mark in such a way that there is damage. To do so would, IMHO, not be fair sailing and break rule 2. The boat entitled to room should sail in such a way that neither boat is damaged and protest. Gordon |
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Gordon
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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No. 19.1 When Rule 19 Applies Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side. However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not. So, unless the mark is big enough to be a continuing obstruction, a boat owing another mark-room that gets inside has absolutely no right to room while the entitled boat is sailing her proper course at the mark. A generous minded protest committee might allow that a ginormous navigation mark or a big pile structure was a continuing obstruction say to a tiny little optimist, but if it's surrounded by navigable water, then there's not much case. |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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I was always told the way to do this is give the room and protest. That way you have covered your own a**e.....
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Of course, if the act of keeping clear for the other boat involves them going into or the wrong side of the mark, then that is their hard luck. Maybe they will plan better next time... Edit - I guess if the mark is large and solid and can cause damage, they would have to be given room to avoid it? Edited by Rupert |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Just don't go hitting anybody |
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ohFFsake ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Thanks ever so much for all that excellent analysis. The "roundabout" analogy explains the situation admirably.
Next time I shall "gybe and be damned..." ![]() |
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gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Not only can you close the door, but as inside overlapped right of way boat who must gybe to sail her proper course at the mark you were obliged until you gybed to sail no further from the mark than needed to sail your proper course (rule 18.4). Your gybe was not unexpected - it was obligatory!
Gordon |
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Gordon
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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To understand better about to and at the mark, read about the roundabout analogy here A right of way boat is not obliged to begin to take avoiding action to keep clear of another boat that will acquire right of way before that boat does acquire right of way. A boat that has right of way is not obliged to anticipate that another boat will break the rules (Case 27). A boat entitled to right of way or room or mark-room need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room (rule 14(a)). Otherwise, of course a boat that is obliged to keep clear of you is obliged to anticipate. Read the definition of keep clear. You are entitled to start changing course to round a mark any time you please as long as, if you are not yet at the mark, you give a boat required to keep clear of you, room to keep clear when you change course. It may seem a bit circular, but once you are close enough to the mark that any sane person would be changing course to get around it, you are pretty much at the mark. Maybe,to put it another way, once your proper course is to change course around the mark, you are at it. I reckon that once you are inside one boat length of the mark, you are at it. So, I think it is fair to say, in this case, once you reach the point on Stbd, where your proper course is to gybe and sail round the mark, you are entitled to bang through the gybe and slam the door in O's face as hard as you like, as long as you don't hit her.
Edited by Brass |
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ohFFsake ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Thank you for that very comprehensive explanation.
I think we may well have been your "doubtful" case, as at 3 lengths we were actually pretty much dead running, if not slightly by the lee. But as you say, this has no bearing, as long as the blue boat wasn't overlapped on the inside, which they clearly weren't. The only worry I have is this statement...
In this instance, we were turning in a steady arc to round close to the mark, and O's course was such that he would collide with us just after we gybed. It would seem that his theory was that he didn't have to anticipate this course alteration, and thus expected me to alter course slowly enough to give him room to start responding after we'd gybed. To do so would effectively mean that he would gain sufficient room to round inside us (which in fact is what happened). So perhaps the crucial point is how soon am I entitled to turn to round a leeward mark. In the general case by the time we are "at" the mark we would generally have already done pretty much all the turning we are going to do and would aim to be close hauled! If the presence of a late barging give way boat means that we can't now alter course until we are "at" the mark then the net result will typically be the loss of 2 or 3 boatlengths to leeward as we round up after the mark, leaving a gap big enough for the other boat to sneak through and gain the advantage. Or does the presence of the mark change our obligation under rule 16, insofar as our course alteration is actually our "proper course" and therefore ought to be anticipated by the other boat? I didn't protest, thinking it better to properly clarify the rules and then have a quiet word before the next race... [edited to add] ...or does "at" the mark in your post mean within 3 lengths of it? Edited by ohFFsake |
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