New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Who's right of way at Leeward Mark?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Who's right of way at Leeward Mark?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
damp_freddie View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 05
Location: Aruba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who's right of way at Leeward Mark?
    Posted: 22 Oct 09 at 8:07pm
I think gordon touches a good point here-

i presume that the other boat was either

1) more experienced and arrogant enough to try it on

2)cheeky, aggressive ignorant....what ever their experience

3) misinterpreted the situation

In cases one and two then a call on rule 18 and dispute over their 'room to keep clear' would be nicely followed up with a protest under rule 2- enough to DSQ them from a series if I remember case history!

What ever, as in down-the-pub assault cases or COLREG incidents at sea, it is worth counter protesting and teaching the blighter the use of the room and the bitter taste of DSQ on revised results.


Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 09 at 9:55am
Brass, the rules are there to ensure that sailing is a safe, non-contact sport.

 I agree that a boat that is not entitled to room has no rights if they try to force a passage. If in doing so they sail themselves into a solid object such as a steel navigation mark that is being used as a mark that is their problem.

However,  the boat entitled to room does have an obligation to avoid contact, and should not deliberately sail in such a way that the "passage forcing" boat is faced with either hitting a boat or the mark in such a way that there is damage. To do so would, IMHO, not be fair sailing and break rule 2.

The boat entitled to room should sail in such a way that neither boat is damaged and protest.

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 09 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Of course, if the act of keeping clear for the other boat involves them going into or the wrong side of the mark, then that is their hard luck. Maybe they will plan better next time... 

Edit - I guess if the mark is large and solid and can cause damage, they would have to be given room to avoid it?

No.

19.1 When Rule 19 Applies

Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side. However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.

So, unless the mark is big enough to be a continuing obstruction, a boat owing another mark-room that gets inside has absolutely no right to room while the entitled boat is sailing her proper course at the mark.

A generous minded protest committee might allow that a ginormous navigation mark or a big pile structure was a continuing obstruction say to a tiny little optimist, but if it's surrounded by navigable water, then there's not much case.

Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 09 at 12:08pm
I was always told the way to do this is give the room and protest. That way you have covered your own a**e.....
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 09 at 8:47am

Of course, if the act of keeping clear for the other boat involves them going into or the wrong side of the mark, then that is their hard luck. Maybe they will plan better next time... 

Edit - I guess if the mark is large and solid and can cause damage, they would have to be given room to avoid it?



Edited by Rupert
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 09 at 11:10pm

Originally posted by ohFFsake

Thanks ever so much for all that excellent analysis. The "roundabout" analogy explains the situation admirably.

Next time I shall "gybe and be damned..."

Just don't go hitting anybody

Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 09 at 9:24pm
Thanks ever so much for all that excellent analysis. The "roundabout" analogy explains the situation admirably.

Next time I shall "gybe and be damned..."
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 09 at 8:18am
Not only can you close the door, but as inside overlapped right of way boat who must gybe to sail her proper course at the mark you were obliged  until you gybed to sail no further from the mark than needed to sail your proper course (rule 18.4). Your gybe was not unexpected - it was obligatory!

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 09 at 2:20am

To understand better about to and at the mark, read about the roundabout analogy here

http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Techn ical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Sect ion%20C%20Rules.pdf

A right of way boat is not obliged to begin to take avoiding action to keep clear of another boat that will acquire right of way before that boat does acquire right of way.  A boat that has right of way is not obliged to anticipate that another boat will break the rules (Case 27).  A boat entitled to right of way or room or mark-room need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room (rule 14(a)).  Otherwise, of course a boat that is obliged to keep clear of you is obliged to anticipate.  Read the definition of keep clear.

You are entitled to start changing course to round a mark any time you please as long as, if you are not yet at the mark, you give a boat required to keep clear of you, room to keep clear when you change course.

It may seem a bit circular, but once you are close enough to the mark that any sane person would be changing course to get around it, you are pretty much at the mark.  Maybe,to put it another way, once your proper course is to change course around the mark, you are at it.  I reckon that once you are inside one boat length of the mark, you are at it.

So, I think it is fair to say, in this case, once you reach the point on Stbd, where your proper course is to gybe and sail round the mark, you are entitled to bang through the gybe and slam the door in O's face as hard as you like, as long as you don't hit her.

 

 

 



Edited by Brass
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 09 at 1:33am
Thank you for that very comprehensive explanation.

I think we may well have been your "doubtful" case, as at 3 lengths we were actually pretty much dead running, if not slightly by the lee. But as you say, this has no bearing, as long as the blue boat wasn't overlapped on the inside, which they clearly weren't.

The only worry I have is this statement...

While I is sailing to the mark, and until I is at the mark, if I changes course, I must give O room to keep clear under rule 16.

In this instance, we were turning in a steady arc to round close to the mark, and O's course was such that he would collide with us just after we gybed.

It would seem that his theory was that he didn't have to anticipate this course alteration, and thus expected me to alter course slowly enough to give him room to start responding after we'd gybed.

To do so would effectively mean that he would gain sufficient room to round inside us (which in fact is what happened).

So perhaps the crucial point is how soon am I entitled to turn to round a leeward mark. In the general case by the time we are "at" the mark we would generally have already done pretty much all the turning we are going to do and would aim to be close hauled!

If the presence of a late barging give way boat means that we can't now alter course until we are "at" the mark then the net result will typically be the loss of 2 or 3 boatlengths to leeward as we round up after the mark, leaving a gap big enough for the other boat to sneak through and gain the advantage.

Or does the presence of the mark change our obligation under rule 16, insofar as our course alteration is actually our "proper course" and therefore ought to be anticipated by the other boat?

I didn't protest, thinking it better to properly clarify the rules and then have a quiet word before the next race...

[edited to add]
...or does "at" the mark in your post mean within 3 lengths of it?

Edited by ohFFsake
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy