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That new wooden Merlin

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: That new wooden Merlin
    Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 2:20pm
My last three two man boats were a Grad, Merlin and now a
National 12 and I'm interested, so i agree your looking at
a much broader spectrum of sailors and cant discount the
slower boats.

But that said if your just gonna put more rag on it then i
loose interest. The appeal of the NS to me is the
technicality. Put more rag on it and then Hannah and I just
wont be big/fit enough to sail it! Keep it technical and a
far broader spectrum of sailor sizes have a chance.

Ian
RS300
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 12:58pm
Good point.  Its odd though, because I had never previously considered any two sail boat before the NS (apart from cats) and don't see myself as in the market for an Ent style boat.  Having now sailed two sailed boats though, I like them too!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Sorry, I hadn't mrant to hijack the thread, I was just struck by the superficial similarity between the hull shapes (and photo angles). 

I don't think boats like the Firefly and Grad are in the same market niche as the Icon.  I didn't know Albacores were still made?


Market niches may be over rated - I happen to like simple 2 sailed boats, and have sailed Fireflies all my life. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in a faster 2 sailed boat if a great one came out. That puts them in the same niche in my own personal market!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 12:20pm

The thing I found with my NS mast is that when you have the mast an sail tuned properly it is very fast, but when it is wrong it is very slow.  This is because the boat has very small sails and relies on the efficiency of the mast to get the same performance as a boat with normal size sails. If you lose the efficiency through bad trim, you go as slow as a boat with very small sails.  Also, as soon as the wind is far enough behind that you are sailing on drag rather than lift, you are slow again due to lack of sail area.

If you get it right though they are very fast.  You can get more lift and less drag, which equate to higher speed and closer pointing.  Close reaching is the NS14s real forte.  I firmly believe that you can get as good gust response with a wing mast, but done differently. 

In fact, because the mast is much stiffer in one axis than the other (talking NS style wing, not Tasar style), the amount of rotation effects the amount of sideways bend, in some ways you have more control over gust response - after all, when reaching you don't really want a gust responsive mast.

But when you can pick your sail area, it is makes sense to put bigger sails on a (nice) stick than develop a complex wing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 11:15am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Perhaps when the Merlins and RS400's get blown away by wingmast boats at the major pursuit/handicap races over a range of weather, we'll be convinced.

Which will never happen because there could never be more than a percentage point or so difference in performance. That will inevitably be swallowed up in all the other differences between boats and even more crews. The only situation in which the wing mast can show off its advantages and disadvantages is within a development class.

I used to be very enthusiastic about them back in the 70s and 80s, but as pole rigs have got more sophisticated over the years, and as we've learned far more about the importance of gust response and the like, I suspect, on limited evidence, that the potential advantages of the things are far less marked.

The other big problem is that they are complete sonofbitches to tune, so if you haven't got the accumulated expertise of folks like the NS guys to learn from its going to be a nightmare to get the device working to anything like potential. I suppose I should put one on the IC, which as a moderate sail area high efficiency boat ought to be a good platform, but I just can't face the devlopment work... I have enough trouble raising the enthusiam to so the work to add and subtract carbon from the pole mast to tune that properly...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 10:40am

I think some fairly serious thoughtand effort has been thrown at wing masts for Merlins in the not so distant past? Not successfully. Not sure they all been pear shaped either?

At the end of the day, it's a highly developed boat that delivers close racing. That's what it's for, fleet racing, over a variety of conditions. and it does it very well. A class that delivers such good (quality and quantity) fleets at opens and championships will be a tough place to prove anything radical, unless it really is a better all round solution. You'd think extra 'free' sail (wing) area was a dead cert, but unless it's as controllable up to F6 and has no more weight aloft, there are down sides.

The Aus classes with wing masts don't seem to catch on here in the UK, not sure why. Possibly it's the no kite thing, which may only be marketable for 'simple' boats here, i.e. not too many rig controls, with the strange exception of the N12.

Perhaps when the Merlins and RS400's get blown away by wingmast boats at the major pursuit/handicap races over a range of weather, we'll be convinced.

To stumble back in the general direction of the OP, how much is a new Merlin?

both wood and plastic?

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 10:02am
Originally posted by MerlinMags

With regard to Merlins with wing masts, whilst it all looks good in principle, everyone who has tried one has experienced failure, so thats why we still have 'sticks'.

That's because everyone who's tried one has used a pear shaped section, and anyone who's researched the Australian development will tell you that was never going to work...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 9:59am
The Merlin hull rules are a bit difficult to explain simply, but there is a good introduction here:
www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/beginners.htm
I assume the NS14 hulls are very different as their rules are freer.

With regard to Merlins with wing masts, whilst it all looks good in principle, everyone who has tried one has experienced failure, so thats why we still have 'sticks'.

Note that the original Merlins had wooden rotating masts! Plenty are still going. But I don't think it counts as a wing...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 9:48am
But it was still basically a Merlin ....

There may be superficial similarities between hull forms but the NS root has been much freer since inception.  It is really about convergence of design - to produce  easily driven hull shapes (that do not have any nasty side issues !).  It is the rigs rigs that define each of these classes to a greater extent perhaps although I do think the MR could usefully experiment with wing sections given their existing freedom to do so.  The NS  evolved the wing mast approach  because for a set or rule limited sail area  they can and do prove more effective/competitive - and were permitted.   The reason we are going for a stick mast now for ICON is that we are not bound by a development design maximum sail area and can achieve a similar impact in a more straightforward manner - and it is easier for typical helms to read the sails effectively on a stick mast.  The Merlins are like the NS class, a limited sail area development class that does allow wing masts (but generally uses 'sticks' so I'm surprised that few have thought this an interesting area to explore - although I have had a couple of enquiries about our now spare wing sections and sails already !

Mike L.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 9:45am
Sorry Chris, I didn't realise you guys made Albacores. Are they still wood?
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