New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Hitting a Mark...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Hitting a Mark...
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hitting a Mark...
    Posted: 30 Oct 20 at 11:25am
Removing the rules can also cause confusion.

RS have (or used to have) a rule for their events that said if you hit a mark you didn't need to take a penalty. This was only for RS Open meetings.

Cue the issue when someone in club racing hits a mark, doesn't take a penalty and uses the defence of 'I sail an RS my class says I don't need to take a penalty'. Thankfully after explaining they were happy to accept it was only for Class Open events. It is a can of worms though..... similar to the Finn pumping rule (although that is easier as it requires a flag to be displayed).
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 5:03pm
Mozzy, In the absence of other boats, there would be no problem in taking a penalty turn in the zone, but the issue is gaining an immediate entitlement to mark room in a crowded area without the other boats having any opportunity to give it. I would suggest that the penalty boat needs to sail outside the zone and 'slot in' the queue in an orderly manner at that point.
Back to Top
Mozzy View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Apr 20
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 4:11pm
I think it's fine.

The whole thing about no getting an advantage when breaking a rule and completing a penalty is different from this situation. They aren't gaining an advantage, they are limiting their losses. 

If they don't get room when going to the finish a second time, then how will they ever finish?
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 1:16pm
All the boats outside the zone when the penalty boat touches the mark have given the penalty boat mark-room then, so no more mark room when they arrive.
Back to Top
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 12:03pm
But does it? What about the boat that was outside the zone when mark room was first given (by another boat(s)). But is in the zone when penalty boat makes second 'claim' to mark room?
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:43am
Thanks for the reaching example.  I agree that it's much more problematical.


I think the problem will be solved in the 2021 rules, where a new last sentence is added to rule 18.1



Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given.


Edited by Brass - 29 Oct 20 at 1:11pm
Back to Top
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:33am
Brass, In the scenario you have illustrated (downwind finish), indeed there is little chance of a conflict arising.
Take a different scenario when the finish is on a fetch/reach with a steady stream of boats... The penalty boat first tacks then gybes... Straight into the stream of boats, with a claim to mark room...
On a normal inside overlap at a mark, the zone provides the buffer. How would you propose a solution to the situation then?
Mine would be something like; Addendum case 108 or explanatory note (or whatever it takes) 'A boat taking a penalty turn within a mark zone forfeits any entitlement to mark room and cannot re-establish entitlement on completion of the penalty over other boats already in the zone'. How would you see that?
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:19am
Would be Exciting to see large cats doing that.
Robert
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:36am
Originally posted by 423zero

Remove a large chunk of rules and simply allow the marks to be touched, as long as they have been passed on the correct side.

Windsurfers have done this for years (not that most of them paid any notice beforehand mind you Ouch) and it is a licence to barge in at speed.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 8:29am
Andy, 

As any law student will tell you, never rely on a headnote.

I'm not trying to kid you that this outcome was carefully considered and approved by the rule-makers:  I'd suggest that it is an unlikely and unusual situation that was never in contemplation.

Note that the 'unbuffered' flip-flop occurs @8 when Y passes head to wind (completes her penalty, ceases to be required to keep clear by rule 22.2, and simultaneously becomes required to keep clear by rule 13, so it's only going to affect a port tacker way deep of the layline coming in red hot.



Edited by Brass - 29 Oct 20 at 9:22am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy