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patj View Drop Down
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2019 RYA PYs
    Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 2:10pm
It isn't that lasers are getting slower, it's that the average crew skill of those racing them in PY data contributing races is getting worse and the best sailors are fleet racing. And likewise in other classes where the equipment hasn't changed. The Albacore for example has lost out over the last few years because there are not enough new back of fleet racers coming into the class but the good sailors still race in club handicaps as well as fleet opens..
It's why classes that newcomers buy (laser, mirror, feva etc.) all seem to gain points on their PY most years.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 10:36am
The Firefly was 103 in the late 50s/early 60s with cotton sails, so it certainly wasn't pegged to that then. I believe at the very start one of the Portsmouth area one designs was picked as a datum point, but that was in the mid 50s.

I wasn't paying attention back then, but TBH I think this is just one of those myths. Every class had a yardstick change when terylene sails came out. There were I think about a dozen classes that retained the same number right through the terylene sails -> pyonline era when primary/secondary calcs were in use. The Firefly wasn't one of them.

Edited by JimC - 12 Mar 19 at 10:43am
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Originally posted by Cirrus

Blaze (very slow to tack) is not as suited as you lose more tacking on a shift than you would by ignoring it.

Did you ever get to one of the CA training weekends ?  No I did not think so .... You never quite got the hang of it Paul did you .... !!    LOL

In comparison to a Solo, BM or D-Zero it is. Combine that with the fact that the roll is limited by the racks means that tacks were never quick on my local puddle (you know, you came to visit).The changes to the boat may have helped, it was certainly much easier to tack your Halo when you came to visit without the mainsheet tower in the way and the transom did not get dug in as you can stay forward. I would still be confident that in a tacking duel on my local puddle with any of those 3 the Blaze would come off second best.

I had great fun in mine but it was very hard to sail to its PY given the local conditions. 
Paul
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

 
.......and your argument does not address my statement "I would be interested to see how much cash the RYA commits to developing the PY system"

Have you tried contacting them?
Paul
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 9:31am
I can't see the need of a "peg" for the PY, which is probably what was realised when the Firefly was dropped.

Yes it has a superficial appeal, and it's true the possibility of drift of the entire population of handicaps exists, but that doesn't matter. Handicapping is based purely on the relative performance of boats, and if you have large numbers of results from a wide range of boats, sailing against each other in almost infinite combinations then forcing one to be a peg is fairly meaningless, and is unlikely to make the analysis any easier, and it won't improve the application in any way.
Peter
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


Originally posted by Rupert

Sussex Lad, you are assuming that a "better" system will be less flawed. Given the biggest variable in the system is the nut on the tiller, I don't agree that cutting the base figures differently, or throwing technology onto the water, is making anything more accurate. It is simply making the inaccuracies more hi-tech.

I'm struggling with your reasoning. Having thought about your rather long sentence I can only assume that you assumed that I was assuming  Wink Yes, in this post I am assuming.


Good, glad we got that straight!
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Posts: 915 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 7:47am
Originally posted by 423zero

Can anyone remember 'Firefly being the pin boat ? Did it work ? Why was fixed boat system abandoned ?
 
Yes!  Firefly, as I remember, was pegged at 100 but also there were a number of other 'primary' handicaps with the non-primary ones subject to changes, I think?
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 19 at 7:06am
Can anyone remember 'Firefly being the pin boat ? Did it work ? Why was fixed boat system abandoned ?
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 11:13pm
Blaze (very slow to tack) is not as suited as you lose more tacking on a shift than you would by ignoring it.

Did you ever get to one of the CA training weekends ?  No I did not think so .... You never quite got the hang of it Paul did you .... !!    LOL
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Granite View Drop Down
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Posts: 476 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 10:15pm
I am pretty sure that having the system pinned to a Laser would not work.

Currently for each race the system calculates a correlation between the finish times for each of the boats in that race, and their handicap, this results in a better than PY or worse than PY for each boat. (excluding the very poor performers)

If you have a load of Lasers in that fleet then great you can have a correlation back to the Laser base number. However if you only have a small number of abnormally performing Lasers then that fleet to Laser correlation will be skewed, which messes up all the results.

If you have no Lasers in your fleet then you have to do the correlation between all the boats on the day the same as the current system.

I can't see how relating everything to one class would help anything, it would just add a layer of complexity and additional oppertunities for error.
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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