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Definition of Planing |
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 Topic: Definition of PlaningPosted: 30 Apr 19 at 1:22pm |
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Fair enough, bad example then!
But still, i recon it would be hard to achieve what the 470s do in most hiking classes. And it's fairly obvious if someone does it at club level.... so much so I don't think it's much of a worry for club racing.
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Fatboi
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Joined: 09 Aug 16 Location: Hampshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 189 |
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Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 12:37pm |
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The Finns are not allowed to pump upwind - written into class rules.
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Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:32am |
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Looks like he's just about to get planing at 1:26, if the crew would just move out... but generally no, not planing I'd say the Ent was. Here at 0.33 you can see me not planing after a gybe, and then a big pump to initiate it... Plenty of 200 planing in that video (but it is 20 knots). Dan's calculation a few pages back is probably pretty accurate for the speeds required to achieve planing... but, my feeling is you drop off the plane at a speed below that which it takes to get over the bow wave (maybe Dan could comment if that is correct). And although 12 knots sounds a lot you can get instantaneous speeds easily over 12 knots in a 200 even in less than 15 knots of breeze, but lasting for less than a fraction of a second. When you shift your weight back violently and give the sail a pump it pushes the boat over it's bow wave. The boats average speed may be well less than 10 knots, but in that moment it's quite easy to get well above. Once out you can keep moving back and the boat will support itself planning on the wider flatter aft section at speed below hull speed. For example, assuming you get up on to the plane at 12 knots, but drop off it at 9. If you can ooch or pump to get over the bow wave by achieving 12 knots for a instant when otherwise you were doing 8 knots, you can then, with the same energy sustain steady planning at 10 knots due to less hull drag. Generally I find a pump when you get hooked up on the back of wave really does help, but timing is crucial. It gives you an instantaneous boost which gets you over the lip. But, every action has an opposite reaction. Pumping is very energy inefficient, you might push the boat forward 2 foot in a pump, but then it slips back 20 inches when you ease the sail and restore your body wait to original trim. Slipping back 20 inches isn't an issue when the pump got you on to the plane at sustained 2 knots faster speed, or gets you on to wave which carries you 50 meters... but if you're not timing these pumps to take advantage of additional gains, then not having your sails or weight correctly trimmed during the pump can be more disruptive lose you those 4 inches which you invested a heap of energy in by pumping. In the very light winds, when you're hardly moving, then pumping, even if you're only clawing yourself forward a few inches at a time is a lot faster than sitting stationary, and you have very little true wind to worry about neglecting anyway... but few regatta's are raced in this, although I accept it makes up a lot of peoples club racing and is where, I think most of the concern with allowing free pumping is. Above is really discussing 'macro' level pumping. With a large body movement and full arm length of sheet. It takes about 1- second for the pump and 5 seconds to slowly move back to the pre-pump position. You then get the fanning style of pumping you see on the 470s and windsurfs upwind which don't give a large instantaneous jump in speed, but input an extra boost of energy continually in to the sails. I think this is very hard to achieve in a dinghy though as you need a full persons body-weight in direct link to the rig... you don't see the finns doing it as most their body-weight is supported by a heavy hull. Edited by mozzy - 30 Apr 19 at 11:28am |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 7:24pm |
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That's the Comet Trio, isn't it? You can plant spuds behind it in a blow. Feels fast, though! |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 2:09pm |
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More likely pushing the level of the lake down.....
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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423zero
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Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420 |
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Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 12:59pm |
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Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 4:13am |
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Because given the gust definition difficulty it would basically be allowing continual kinetics. Just consider the average light airs run... |
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 10:46pm |
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Fact is one pump is never enough, it used to work when it was three pumps which was realistic.
So you get lots of 'one' pumps linked to become continuous, which imv is against the spirit of what is trying to be acheived. Dinghys, well I've yet to experience one that does, on balance don't plane, they just displace a bit quicker on a wave, if you can get them over the hump. That takes more than just one sheet and it's time the whole thing got reviewed as to what realistically happens in real world condtions when there actually are waves. In other words black flag every inland event, sorry those ripple things you get, that chop, that aint enough to plane or displace a tad faster on. When they are planing, pumping is the last thing you're worried about since it's pretty much survival windstrengths 25 kts plus. Edited by iGRF - 26 Mar 19 at 10:48pm |
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Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 9:05pm |
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I do understand that it’s difficult, but then why not remove the whole planing thing? I’m not suggesting open pumping, but why make the one pump conditional on planing? Why not just allow one pump per gust (ignoring that definition difficulty for now) regardless of surfing or planing? I don’t really see what value including the planing condition adds.
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 8:35pm |
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The situation is a long way from ideal, but not as unsatisfactory as having no rules at all. its clear enough when its definitely not planing conditions, and clear enough when it is, but I see no way that the grey area in between can be anything else. I've seen so many on line arguments as to what is or what isn't "real" planing that it seems to me sensible that the rules don't open that can of worms.
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