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GB Sailing Challenge - still confused

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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GB Sailing Challenge - still confused
    Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:00am
For those looking to find out more about the Great Sailing Challenge,  Andy Rice and I will be hosting a webinar tonight (19.00)


There is the chance to ask questions,  both live and in advance.
www.sailracer.org
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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 18 at 12:29pm
certainly for spectators at the venue and interested parties away from it this form of tracking is good, it could be better, but modern equipment allows for live broadcast on several channels like fb and youtube and along with mobile phones on ribs doing the video bit a half decent live broadcast could be made of these sorts of events and OD events too, requires a small team dedicated to it and signal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 18 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Nobody watches this sh*t anyway it’s a sport for participants. Like angling.


You must be kidding; fishing on TV is massive with loads of content and channels ... 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 18 at 7:13am
Originally posted by Mike Holt



The SAP tracking at the 505 Worlds has pretty much every detail you need to work out where you were right or wrong, but would be cost prohibitive for most events I would think.




Agreed sap tracking is way superior. Good laugh for trying to understand why things happened on the course. Costs as much as a mercenary army I expect.
Makes no attempt to give everyone a prize for some facet of their race in a modern snowflake manner.
Chris 249 is bang on about the ims. Sadly I threw out my early to mid 90s seahorse as part of domestication.
Py is the least imperfect way of going non od dinghy racing, any attempts to hop it up just mystify it. Nobody watches this sh*t anyway it’s a sport for participants. Like angling.
If you dislike py enough to do it at club or open level then you don’t like sailing enough, and I expect don’t do much of any variety anyhow.
Plenty of instances of rating band scrap racing working over 40 pt ranges also, as individual ability usually is a far bigger factor in performance until you get into the top 1 or 2 percentages of the bell curve at national level.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mike Holt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 18 at 3:27am
The SAP tracking at the 505 Worlds has pretty much every detail you need to work out where you were right or wrong, but would be cost prohibitive for most events I would think.




Edited by Mike Holt - 28 Nov 18 at 3:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 18 at 1:41am
Originally posted by H2

So back to the original post - if we put all the arguments about why handicap racing is so inferior to one side and accept that some people, however strange, will still use it then why not look for new ways to level measure a helms skill rather than the current method. For me I would be interested to see how a data driven approach could work that provided a dynamic handicap based on some variables such as windspeed. If that could be linked to a GPS unit that gave an instant readout of your current position so that you knew moment to moment on your position then that would be an interesting development that I would like to try out to see whether it was in fact an improvement on the current system.

The issue to confront is that even in IMS yachts, which have speeds that vary much less than dinghies as conditions change, using a handicap that varied according to windspeed and direction is extremely problematic and I think it's been abandoned after many years of intensive effort.

They tried doing things like "implied wind" scoring (which was sort of like back calculating what the wind must have been based on the relative performance of the boats), having a powerboat in the middle of the course measuring windspeeds, looking at inputting tides, taking figures from the wind instruments on selected competitors, using predictions from the weather bureau, etc. Basically none of it satisfied people.

So the first thing would probably be to read up on old Seahorse magazines and other sources, see what has been tried and why it failed, and then try to work out where dinghies could succeed where yachts with fewer lumps and bumps on their performance profiles, more money and lots of instruments and normally sailed in more open water, failed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:50pm
Yeah, I can imagine in a class fleet it's not going to tell you anything that wasn't pretty obvious on the water. But implemented well I can see it going some way to giving the feedback on your performance that sailing in a fleet does. 

If they had mean wind direction, and tacking angles, then they could tell you how many meters you cut off a beat by tacking on the shifts. And by moving to heat maps plus a handful of selected tracks would make the playback a bit more watchable. 

I'd go to handicap race, not fussed about results, but if it could give me some analytics on my performance that otherwise I'd only get from sailing in decent sized fleets. Basically if they could get to a nice version of RaceQs I'd much rather that. 

However, I kind of feel that the type of GPS needed to get the accuracy in telemetry is a bit more costly than what can presently be rolled out. 

Like... I travel a decent way, and pay a decent amount to have one of these on my boom for the day, regardless of results.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:30pm
You could just have spotted the hammer/nail interface.....

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Nov 18 at 9:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by mozzy


Thanks... 
The GPS is okay... the playback wasn't super useful as the real time positions didn't seem to account for start time differences. Then on the last leg the positions seemed to change suddenly by quite a large amount as boats finished. It would be nice if the playback showed handicapped positions, rather than on the water positions. It was kinda messy to watch and I'm not sure I learnt anything from it. It would be good if you could choose maybe 5-10 boats, then the rest of the tracks were heat mapped as a background layer to show where the general fleet went. 
The 'legs' summary tab seems to give your corrected time for each leg. So you can see leg by leg how you did on handicap. Which is useful if you've not got any boats in your class to compare to. This tab also gives distance sailed and average knots plus VMG, however, this isn't handicapped data, so you can only compare it against your other legs and other boats of the same class. What would be nice is number of gybes and tacks per leg. Alongside distance sailed and VMG this would tell you whether the tacks for shift were worth the slow down in speed. 
I don't understand the predictions tab. They could do with some explanation on the meaning of each data column. 
What would be nice if they could heat map the course and see the days favoured strategy. Then filter the heat map by class to see where specific classes went, and also then filter by top 20 to see which way the leading boats tended to go. Or you could filter the top boats by leg and heat map all their tracks. They could show this on big screen in the bar and it would add some real value. 



We had the trackers at the 2000 Nationals. I thought it would be interesting to do some anslysis. But I quickly got bored. Why? Because it soon became apparent that on every leg the boats that gained were the ones that sailed the shortest distance. So what: there is s tracking capability. It’s ok to wAtch love, but if you’re sailing you don’t watch. So that’s not marketable. So it seems to me that this novel handicapping nonsense is a new way to put the tracking capability to work and at some point sailors will be asked to pay.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 8:09pm
I don’t disagree that there is some potentially interesting post race analytics that can take place if the right data is collected. It seems very ambitious to use it as the basis for a handicap system.

I suppose you could have a probabilistic handicap system. Rather than a single, deterministic, handicap you have a spread (say Laser 1070-1120) with a probability assigned to each value.
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