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    Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 2:09pm
Any thoughts on how long a pursuit race should be? PY divided by 10, 15, 18.6?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by patj

Rupert will remember the pursuit where the slowest boat was the Puffin. We sent her off and carried on drinking tea and chatting for another hour before anyone else started and the next starters were the minisails on whom the race duration was actually based.

Did the puffin win?

Our slowest boats tend to be toppers and sometimes they get a huge advantage if they get a lap or two up in a decent breeze and then it dies before the rest of us start or vice versa!


Edited by H2 - 20 Sep 18 at 1:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 1:26pm
Rupert will remember the pursuit where the slowest boat was the Puffin. We sent her off and carried on drinking tea and chatting for another hour before anyone else started and the next starters were the minisails on whom the race duration was actually based.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 12:47pm
All true, we sail on a relatively small lake with a fixed line most of the year. Good point about the start and finish line being the same, not sure what we do in the winter series' but we definitely use committee boat starts and finishes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 12:37pm
We do average laps on a Saturday, when we have an all in one handicap race, from tera's to moths. It works on Saturday. 

We also have the option to do average laps on a Sunday for the PY banded fleets. When we brought it in we thought it would massively cut down on the hanging around between races. But actually, the PY bands were already narrow enough that most boats finished within 10 minutes of each other anyway, so you'd have to be doing more than 6 laps to make average lapping any better. Of course it's a little more random who's waiting for who, rather than faster boats systematically getting less racing time. Plus, the fleets like the option of using courses that wouldn't work with average laps. 

Average laps does put some restrictions on the racing though. All laps must be the same, and the race has to finish where it starts. Lap times have to be shorter than the gaps would otherwise be at the end of the race, so that means shorter laps, which means a more crowed race area. You can only shorten where you started. And you have to count laps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 11:55am
That's not the point I was trying t make mozzy, apologies if I wasn't clear. Faster boats are usually more demanding to sail and are sailed by more athletic sailors (sweeping generalisation I know and not actually true in my case at least) but usually spend less time on the water than slower boats.

I have seen a pursuit race this year where the slow boat was an Optimist, an extreme case mind you.

FWIW my home club use average lap scoring pretty much across the board.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 18 at 11:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 11:42am
I'm not forgetting. But I was responding to Sams post saying that pursuit races were unique in making the slower boats sail for longer. 

Plus, I think very few club actually run average laps as the de-facto option. Its very restrictive. Most of the racing at most clubs I've been a member of have split in to PY banded fleets with separate starts and sometimes separate courses / laps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 11:11am
This is true, and as I said the race time is predetermined for a pursuit and dictated by the slowest boat. in a 60 min pursuit the Topper will sail for 60 mins I will sail for around 47 mins. In a handicap I will sail 4 x 12 min laps, the Topper will sail maybe 3 x 15 min laps so we'll be on the water for roughly he same time. (ok sometimes the Topper will end up sailing the 4th lap if I haven't lapped him but in principle.....)

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 18 at 11:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 10:55am
Originally posted by mozzy

...Assuming equal ability then mass handicap start or pursuit, the relative time the fast boats and slow boats race for is the same...

Don't forget many clubs run average lap racing, in which case the race duration is more even. I've never thought of a way to do an average lap equivalent for pursuit races that wouldn't lead to chaos in the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 18 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I love pursuit racing but throws up an interesting dichotomy, that the race duration is set by the slowest boat and the fastest may only be sailing for half that time. Since in many cases (mine being a notable exception) the fastest boats are sailed by the fittest sailors who could reasonably be expected to cope with the extra demands of their chosen steeds for the full duration. Maybe this is one of the reasons that pursuit racing is not more popular than it is?
How do you mean the duration is set by the slowest boat? Assuming equal ability then mass handicap start or pursuit, the relative time the fast boats and slow boats race for is the same. The difference is you start at separate times and finish at once in different places, rather than starting all at once and finishing at different times in the same place.  

All boats test different skills, it's one of the reasons lumping them into one race under handicap doesn't work well. Saying faster classes should be handicapped further because they're sailed by better (fitter) sailors is getting in to personal handicapping. Saying that faster boats should be handicapped for sailing less time... well that's already what happens, as faster boats always sail for less time and it's from those results that the handicaps are calculated.  

To me, pursuit races are one of the most fun formats for club racing. You get that feeling of chasing and being chased. It gets more exciting towards the end and the result is obvious on the water. Everyone is back to clubhouse at the same time for showers and a drink. Sure, you still have all the flaws of the handicapping system, but they're laid bare to be accepted for what they are. 

But it's obvious why they aren't used more often. They're much harder for the race team to start and record results, meaning you can only do one race at a time (rather than a fast, medium and slow fleet etc.). Plus, if you shorten the race time to what most people would like on a regular basis, the the starting becomes very difficult. So pursuits tend to be run as one race for all over a longer duration. This gives you much less flexibility on getting good race lengths and courses for the range of boats that turn up. 


Edited by mozzy - 20 Sep 18 at 9:02am
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