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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 5:22pm
That's what I do DD, t'was more of a 'would if I let them' than a description of what actually happens (most of the time anyway). 

The fact that he was getting "as and as a Badger" (lovely expression BTW) probably contributed to his demise, if he'd stayed cool he would have been more likely to sail faster and get past...... 

Oh, and thanks Brass :)


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 5:23pm
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 4:58pm
BTW. It's all very well getting a red mist on and trying to use every right to it's fullest extent. Racing is not always about going as fast as possible, sometimes smarts work better. If instead of taking on a fight he was always going to struggle with L. Asy. had backed off a tiny bit (half a boat length) and come up behind and over me he may have done better.
And Sam being a Windward sym. of an asy. ain't so bad, height is always good and if it gets silly simply back off for a couple of seconds and dive down behind. Sorry those 400s are giving you grief, go on get wily leave them to it and let them sail miles if it makes 'em feels good.
edit for some typos.  LOL



Edited by Do Different - 20 Sep 17 at 5:11pm
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:59pm
Because boats were very closely matched for speed and he simply didn't have the legs to pull it off.
Peter Milne Javelin vs Phil Morrison Laser 4000.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:39pm
Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

No, of course not, there is no right to clear air.

Guys, your are making life difficult for yourselves by inventing terms that are not in the rules.

Quite right, the requirement to keep clear does not include a requirement to provide undisturbed air.

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.

But a requirement can exist under rule 24, although not applicable here.

But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted

Yes

and you must keep clear

Yes

and not impede him.

No, keep clear means keep clear, no more, no less.

The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired.

But, seemingly, on DD's description, L was unable to sail high and fast in W's lee and (to depart from the language of the rules) 'couldn't get to him', whether because of poor sailing,or different types of boat, or some other reason.

The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's

Yup.

We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change.

and, BTW, rule 17 on/off won't change:  it will continue as it was when the boats first became overlapped.

Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat.

Yes

 DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat.

Yes, but as it proved, this doesn't usually prove too difficult.

That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

Originally posted by Do Different

Right oh, on mobile so forgive any typos.

Keelboats? Nah no way, dinghies. Both trapeze boats reaching to a distant gybe mark on a traditional triangle course.

I accept that Asy. had luffing rights but the thing which was making him as mad as badger was that he couldn't get close enough through my dirty air to exercise them. Hence my assertion that even though he had ROW he was the one in the bad place and I was under no obligation to bail him out.

Yup. but I still don't understand why L couldn't have eased down a bit, separated, settled and built some speed and apparent and then given you stick.


Edited by Brass - 20 Sep 17 at 3:45pm
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 1:23pm
It was a windward mark so most likely a bear away (no mention of a tack or gybe) in which case W/L won't change. Even if the overlap was broken and re-established L can still sail his proper course which for an assy will often/usually be higher than a sim kite boat. DD made a rounding into a windward position and should expect to have to keep clear of the inside/leward boat. That's my reading of the situation FWIW, if Brass or any of the rules experts are around maybe they can clarify?

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 1:25pm
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 11:28am
The way I read this, if L was originally inside (and therefore W), the overlap must have been broken on the exit from the mark. Therefore I assume the new overlap was established within 2 boat lengths to leeward and therefore L can't force W up? DD made a better mark rounding & hoist. Should he be penalised for that?
(NB. I don't know the rules in enough detail to quote numbers & don't have the time to go looking right now - sorry.)
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 10:26am
No, of course not, there is no right to clear air. But, you were keep clear boat and he was entitled to sail pretty much where he wanted and you must keep clear and not impede him. The way it panned out it may well have been you in the bad place as he could have sailed you halfway across the channel if he so desired. The problem with sims and assys racing the same course is that the assy's 'proper course' may well be much higher than the sim's. We get the same thing on our lake, if I end up to windward of a 400 on a deep reach in the Blaze he will simply sail me off the lake while he gets his apparent wind working.......

BTW, I'm guessing your are sailing keelboats not dinghies?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 10:28am
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:51am
Interesting Sam. He had plenty of clear water, are you really saying I should have given him clear air as well?
Off to work now, look fwd to reading this eve.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 17 at 9:35am
Assuming a bear away onto a reach? I think, if you were windward boat, you were in the wrong and should have kept clear regardless of where he chose to sail. Rule 11. He did not gain an overlap from clear astern so R17 does not apply and even if it did his proper course with an assy kite is a broad reach or higher so he is entitled to sail you up as high as he needs to to get the assy working.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Sep 17 at 9:39am
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