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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Jul 15 at 11:05am
For the same reason you can't sail people up the beach. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 3:55pm
Its consistent with other rules. Its normal for inside overlapped boats to be allowed room to get through. The only exception I can think of right now is at start lines.

I have to say I would take a fair bit of convincing that your suggestion is in line with common sense, especially if you consider big thin leadmines that don't slow down very well.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 3:55pm
All seems pretty basic to me. As far as I can recall, the rules have been like this for as long as I've been sailing, so 40 years or so,and never have I had an issue with it. Yes, you can (and i have)ended up with layline problems,but that just shows piss poor planning, really.
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Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 3:09pm
What a stupid rule, why should PL have to give up room to PW when PW shouldn't sail themselves in there in the first place? If PW slows down then they can sail astern of PL and clear the starboard boat, easy. It's just common sense isn't it?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 1:06pm
Then you're going to be disqualified Tom, and if there's a collision and damage you're going to be paying for it.


19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

20.1 Hailing
When approaching an obstruction, a boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail if
(a) she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course change,
(b) she is sailing below close-hauled, or
...
20.2 Responding
(a) After a boat hails, she shall give the hailed boat time to respond.
(b) The hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
(c) The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
(d) When the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.
(e) From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided the hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.


And for a good example lets have Case 11.

CASE 11
Definition, Obstruction
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 19.2(b), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an Obstruction
Rule 20.1, Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Hailing
Rule 21(a), Exoneration
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Summary of the Facts
PW and PL, close-hauled on port tack and overlapped, approached S on the windward leg. PL could pass safely astern of S. PW, on a collision course with S, hailed PL for room to pass astern of S when PW and PL were about three hull lengths from S. PL ignored the hail and maintained her course. When PW bore away to avoid S, she and PL had slight beam-to-beam contact with no damage or injury. PW protested under rule 19.2(b).
The protest committee held that rule 19.2(b) did not apply, stating that PW could easily have tacked into the open water to windward to keep clear, and should have done so. PW was disqualified under rule 11 and appealed.

Decision
S was an obstruction to PW and PL because both PW and PL would need to change course substantially if they were sailing directly towards S and were one hull length from her, and because they both were required by rule 10 to keep clear of her (see the definition Obstruction). Under rule 19.2(a), PL, as the right-of-way boat, was entitled to pass S on either side.
She chose to pass to leeward of S. Therefore, under rule 19.2(b) PW was entitled to room to pass between PL and the stern of S. PL did not give PW that room, so PL broke rule 19.2(b). PL was subject to rule 14, but since she held right of way over PW and there was no damage or injury, she is exonerated for breaking that rule (see rule 14(b)).

PW could not have known that PL was not going to give sufficient room until she was committed to pass between S and PL. PW broke rule 11, but she did so while sailing within the room to which she was entitled by rule 19.2(b). Therefore, as required by rule 21(a), PW is exonerated for breaking rule 11. Also, when it became clear that PL was not giving room, it was not reasonably possible for PW to avoid the contact that occurred, so PW did not break rule 14.

PW was not required to ‘tack into open water to windward to keep clear’ because PL did not hail under rule 20.1 for room to tack and avoid S. Had PL hailed, PW would have been required by rules 20.2(b) and 20.2(c) to respond even though rule 20.1(a) prohibited PL from hailing because she did not have to make any change of course to avoid S.

PW’s appeal is upheld. The decision of the protest committee disqualifying PW is reversed. PW is reinstated, and PL is disqualified for breaking rule 19.2(b).


Edited by JimC - 25 Jul 15 at 1:16pm
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by tgruitt

Don't come near me calling for room to duck then, you're not getting any!!

Come on Tom, this is a pretty fundamental rule. If you don't give room, and the alternative is spearing an utterly innocent starboard tack boat then you're going to get a long sharp bow where it will quite spoil your day, and then a thankfully short protest meeting in which you'll get a DSQ while being unable to sit down.


I will make sure there is enough room for me to duck the Starboard boat but I would squeeze you to windward early, you then have the nice easy option of just tacking away or slowing down and waiting. Simple. Lets just get this straight, I imagine it's like the diagram below?

If I was PL, I would not allow PW any room to pass a Starboard tack boat, that's their problem not mine. Especially if I'm making that gap between the two Stb boats. (which I am)




Edited by tgruitt - 25 Jul 15 at 12:47pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 8:18am
Alex covered this. If stbd is an obstruction for pl then pl chooses whether to tack or duck. But if she elects to duck she must give room for pw to duck too. If she wants to tack she must call early enough for W to respond, and if she does hail she cannot change her mind and duck instead.

Basically L decides which side she will go but w is always allowed to make the same choice as L.

Edited by JimC - 25 Jul 15 at 8:25am
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 7:07am
This could be disastrous for PL if she was on the lay line prior to S turning up.
By ducking and giving room for PW to duck, PL has placed herself in an impossible situation at the mark.
In this scenario PL will want to call PW to tack under R20 but PW will want PL to duck under R19.

Who gets to make the call and why?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 5:22am
Originally posted by tgruitt

Don't come near me calling for room to duck then, you're not getting any!!

Come on Tom, this is a pretty fundamental rule. If you don't give room, and the alternative is spearing an utterly innocent starboard tack boat then you're going to get a long sharp bow where it will quite spoil your day, and then a thankfully short protest meeting in which you'll get a DSQ while being unable to sit down.

Edited by JimC - 25 Jul 15 at 5:26am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by tgruitt

Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.

The key part here is ahead but overlapped. Overlapped means you can call for room to duck if you are the give way boat (but cannot then tack off you must duck if you call for room to duck).

If W is clear astern then they have no right to call for room from L to duck the obstruction.

Firstly, the rule creating an entitlement to room to pass between the leeward boat and the starboard tack boat is rule 19.  Unlike rule 20 (Room to tack), which creates an entitlement to hail for room to tack, rule 19 contains no express entitlement for any boat to hail.

Much less does rule 19 impose any obligation (similar to the rule 20 obligation to tack as soon as possible) on the hailing boat following a hail.

The leeward boat must give the overlapped windward boat room regardless of whether the windward boat hails or not, unless the leeward boat has been unable to [give room] from the time the overlap began (rule 19.2( b )).

Note there is no three boat length zone in connection with rule 19:  it applies when boats are at an obstruction.  The inside boat might become overlapped quite late and close to the obstruction, and as long as the leeward boat is able to give room (which she will usually be able to do by bearing away, taking stern-kick into account etc), she must do so.

If a leeward boat protested a windward boat for hailing for room, and then tacking away, the only grounds that might be available would be under rule 2 for a deceptive hail.

I would be very careful about considering such a protest.

For a start, I would tend to be quite sympathetic (depending on the facts) to a defence from the windward boat that she tacked because she was concerned that the leeward boat was not giving her the room to which she was entitled.  She might or might not have protested the leeward boat for not giving room:  that is entirely up to her

I would not consider a hail that did nothing more than paraphrase rule 19, for example 'You must give me room there', or even 'room' or 'water' to be deceptive.  Case 47 is the relevant case on deceptive hails

CASE 47
A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly, and has broken rule 2.

The requirement is that the boat must know she has no entitlement and make a conventional hail 'claiming' that entitlement.  In the rule 19 room case, the windward boat would actually have an entitlement and Case 47 would not support finding a breach of rule 2.  Even if the hail was made while still clear astern, I would be happy that if it was made in anticipation of an entitlement, it was OK.
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