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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by fleaberto

Seems we only just missed you this morning tickster.....we were at Hartleys this morning making use of the superb chandlery.
The guys said you & louis had just picked up the new boat. Took a look at one in the shop - very pretty close up I must admit  Clap


Yo! Sorry we missed you. The foul youth wanted to get back to Buxton so he could play hockey and we made it! Louis boat was the grey black one at the Dingy Show, very nice. Yes the chandlery is very good.
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fleaberto View Drop Down
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Posts: 302 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fleaberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 7:30pm
Seems we only just missed you this morning tickster.....we were at Hartleys this morning making use of the superb chandlery.
The guys said you & louis had just picked up the new boat. Took a look at one in the shop - very pretty close up I must admit  Clap
Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays'
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 5:50pm
If one is obsessed with a certain boat irrespective of its suitability for your build or ability...then fine. A mate of mine hit 60 ten years ago, he sold the Laser he had been sailing for 30 years (yes!) and bought an RS 600, a sports car and a bike. This was a failure but fun. He did retain the car and bike. He now sails Supernova. Good for him we all said. Had he wished to be competitive a Lightning would have suited him and our water. We all have choices, have a laugh or fleet sail in suitable boats.

Who said "All roads lead to Rome"?  Well on this forum all roads lead to py discussion!

Picked up the new Byte at Hartleys this morning, looks just fabulous. Today they had a Wayfarer and a Nova going out. Apparently they cant make Supernovas quick enough despite the Zero and Aero.
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 3:14pm
Woodburner, a handicap based on performance is fair in regards to a boats potential as if it were to be measured performance.  The sailors in any given class are generally type formed to suit that class, either it is dictated by class weight limits or by a perceived performance gain promoted by the class.  So if you sail a particular class you must therefore fit within those parameters (doing otherwise would be a waste of time) and therefore be within the boats potential performance range, if you are outside of it you are either a sailing god or just a bit pony.

i like the idea of a measured starting point for all new classes as its a base point all have to go from and so is fair to everyone, the only problem is how do you measure in a fair way, you will inevitably screw one type form over another see IRC, IMS, IOR.

if the handicap is "too easy" because its being sailed by muppets then its a boat for said muppets, if youre that great why are you sailing it?

If its "too harsh" then it maybe out of your league, or you could persevere and bring the handicap to an acceptable level.

if its dead let it die, there are a lot of boats that should do that, youve said as much many times over.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 1:30pm
It's not about long or short, heavy or light, the fundamental point at issue is having a system that gives the boat a fair handicap and it stays that way.

Not a)A too harsh handicap because it's new and might damage existing class(es)
b)A too easy handicap because it's sailed by beginners & muppets on a lake
c)A too harsh handicap because good sailors chose and won with it because it was previously b)
d)A wrong handicap because it is viewed as a dead class and nobody is interested in it.

That's why.


Edited by Woodburner - 28 Mar 15 at 1:32pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 8:35am
And some of us have cheated over the winter by losing a bit of pie and ale from our midriffs....
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 8:33am
Originally posted by getafix


Originally posted by Woodburner


If I wanted to just 'win' I'd slide myself into the arse end of a streaker on the lake and crew up an L3k on the sea, and how rewarding would that be?
Which precisely makes my point, the way this system just goes round and round itself chucking out bandits every now and then with every boats destiny decided by who happens to be sailing it and on what particular type of water is wrong.
OK, you have a point.  But long ago, faced with this dilema I chose the patch I suspect many here and in the <actual> sailing public have done; buy a boat I like, join a club I like, race there, try and win, try and get to some opens and the odd race week where possible, tinker with it, don't cry to much when you win or lose.  I don't accept that a handicap system 'ruins' your enjoyment of the sport.  If it does, you're probably taking the whole thing far too seriously and OD racing exists so you don't have to handicap.


But Getafix, don't forget, there is no such thing as one design sailing, as some us are short, and THAT JUST ISN'T FAIR!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 15 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Woodburner

If I wanted to just 'win' I'd slide myself into the arse end of a streaker on the lake and crew up an L3k on the sea, and how rewarding would that be?

Which precisely makes my point, the way this system just goes round and round itself chucking out bandits every now and then with every boats destiny decided by who happens to be sailing it and on what particular type of water is wrong.


OK, you have a point.  But long ago, faced with this dilema I chose the patch I suspect many here and in the <actual> sailing public have done; buy a boat I like, join a club I like, race there, try and win, try and get to some opens and the odd race week where possible, tinker with it, don't cry to much when you win or lose. 

I don't accept that a handicap system 'ruins' your enjoyment of the sport.  If it does, you're probably taking the whole thing far too seriously and OD racing exists so you don't have to handicap.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

This could act as a great motivator to those outside of the top flght.  

Do you have any evidence to back that up?  

Early days,  but we have been encouraged by the feedback from some of the initial testing and discussions.  Regardless of their race rank,  people will be able to see how they have improved (or not) as a percentage score.

Don't they know that already by opening their eyes to those whom they finish in front of?  

I guess they could also look at the results once they are calculated, but by that point I'd imagine half the demographic you're discussing are packed up and heading home.  
And it'll be more of the same. 
Rather than something calculated from scientific rather than data driven fact, averaged between sea and inland then set in stone for the craft unless the craft physical alters, and the handicap derived by the individual and his/her experience then carried from craft to craft.

A much fairer system set by the individual rather than some disinterested body or profiteering event organiser.

Log in, check your craft handicap, select or set your own, then use it. No need to enter events, or travel you just sail to this or that handicap and the driving force would be to reduce it.

Mostly the analysis would tell me that went I'd messed up the series and was having a few more beers the night before I got worse.  But I knew that anyway....why would I want it quasi-scientifically measured!
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 8:13pm
If I wanted to just 'win' I'd slide myself into the arse end of a streaker on the lake and crew up an L3k on the sea, and how rewarding would that be?

Which precisely makes my point, the way this system just goes round and round itself chucking out bandits every now and then with every boats destiny decided by who happens to be sailing it and on what particular type of water is wrong.


Edited by Woodburner - 27 Mar 15 at 8:15pm
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