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Passing (or stopping someone pass) on a reach??

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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Passing (or stopping someone pass) on a reach??
    Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 3:46pm
Well done Rupert. It is always interesting to read the definitions! Admittedly for 'overlap' you have to read 'Clear Astern and Clear Ahead' and the definition takes some understanding (easier if you draw or use model boats.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:54pm
I think I've worked out what one problem is - the overlap doesn't stay parallel to the direction to the next mark, ds797, but to the transom of your boat, so as Brass says, when you turn too far you create the very overlap you were trying to avoid.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by ds797

Ok are these statements correct.....?

1- If I'm trying to pass a boat in front, if I try to sail to windward of her she can luff up to head to wind (which I would have to also do to avoid collision).

Yes

2- If I'm trying to pass to leeward of her, she can immediately turn up to around 90 degrees to "block" me from passing that side.

There is nothing to stop her turning up to windward, but that will not block you.

If she is clear ahead of you, she can bear away to block you, until she becomes overlapped on you, when she will be the windward boat and must keep clear, and at which point you will probably become limited by rule 17.

3- Therefore the boat in front can basically weave around by up to around 180 degrees to block me from passing.

She can go up by about 90 degrees.

She will only be able to bear away by about 10 to 40 degrees (depending on separation) before becoming overlapped to windward and required to keep clear.

So the only way I could pass would be to head off way to leeward of her and establish an overlap some distance downwind of her?

There is no rules reason why you need to give her a wide berth.  Once you become overlapped to leeward you gain right of way and if you just want to sail to the next mark as fast as possible rule 17 limitations will not bother you.  You need to sail low enough to foot faster than she is going so as to break through.

Obviously the front boat "weaving" is not sensible for the front boat to do in a multiboat handicap race as the people behind will catch up,

Continuous 'weaving' doesn't work, but luffing sufficient to deter a larger/faster boat from rolling you to windward is the thing to do.

 but if its a series and you need to finish in front of me it would be a usable tactic......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 8:22pm
As Rupert says, regarding scenario 1 if you gain an overlap to windward of the boat ahead then they are entitled to luff you up head to wind as long as they give you room to do so.
In scenario 2 where you attempt to sail to leeward, while you are clear astern the boat infront can bear away to try and force you to overtake them on their windward side, however in the process of bearing away they may inadvertently create an overlap!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 6:28pm
1 yes, 2 NO, therefore 3 no. If a boat goes to leeward you cannot sail below your proper course, or the boat overtaking to leeward above her proper course, if it will interfere with the other boat. Before the overlap is gained, you can sail above or below proper course, but not in such a way that the other boat cannot avoid you. It is normal to not want the boat to go to windward, but to leeward, unless there are other tactical considerations (like the way round the next mark).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ds797 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 5:57pm
Ok are these statements correct.....?

1- If I'm trying to pass a boat in front, if I try to sail to windward of her she can luff up to head to wind (which I would have to also do to avoid collision).

2- If I'm trying to pass to leeward of her, she can immediately turn up to around 90 degrees to "block" me from passing that side.

3- Therefore the boat in front can basically weave around by up to around 180 degrees to block me from passing.

So the only way I could pass would be to head off way to leeward of her and establish an overlap some distance downwind of her?

Obviously the front boat "weaving" is not sensible for the front boat to do in a multiboat handicap race as the people behind will catch up, but if its a series and you need to finish in front of me it would be a usable tactic......


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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 7:50am
When a boat that is clear ahead changes course her only restriction is that when doing so she must give the other boat room to keep clear (rule 16)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 14 at 10:38pm
Just to make it clear to the OP, the rules allow a boat clear ahead to sail where they like. There is no obligation to sail a proper course but clearly it is in their interests to do so.

The rules only come into play when overlaps are formed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 14 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by ds797

The previous answers seemed less than conclusive.
Originally posted by ds797

Surely zig-zagging is "unsportsmanlike", but is it prohibited?  Is there still "proper course"?  How is it defined?
Maybe you are not grasping the fairly straightforward application of rule 17 because you are under a misconception about how the game should be played.

Unlike a swimming race, or a 100m running race, which are based on pure speed, the Racing Rules of Sailing permit boats to interact with one another, in the course of a race so as to gain or defend tactical advantages, depending on the rights and obligations imposed by the rules.

In particular, the rules have always traditionally permitted a boat being overtaken to 'defend her wind', that is to prevent a boat 'overtaking' to windward from blanketing her to wind by luffing and driving the windward boat further to windward.

Conversely, a boat 'overtaking' to leeward is forbidden, by rule 17 from unnecessarily interfering with a boat to windward, even though she has right of way.

So 'zig-zagging' is not only not unsportsmanlike, but is an essential part of the game as it is played.
Originally posted by ds797

Reaching leg (i.e. not upwind and not downwind, exact angle unimportant but lets say 90 degrees to true wind)...

Should the front boat sail the straight course to next mark? (don't think they have to as they can come up in lulls and go down in puffs)
Quite correct
Originally posted by ds797


How much course change can they make to attempt to stop the boat behind from passing??

If the boat behind is attempting to pass to windward (from clear astern becomes overlapped to windward) there is no limitation on how high the leeward boat can sail to defend herself, right up until she gets to and past head to wind, at which point she has changed tack and becomes the give way boat under rule 13.

If the boat behind becomes overlapped to leeward, if she becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, she is limited by rule 17 which requires her to sail no higher than her proper course (which is a defined term and has bee discussed in these threads).  If there is more than 2 hull lengths between the boats when they become overlapped, rule 17 does not apply and there is no proper course limitation.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 3:33pm
If your proper course (ie, you'd be doing it whether the other boat was there or not) would be to luff in the lulls and bear off in the gusts, then you can carry on doing the luffing part of this even if you aren't in a position where you are allowed to luff the other boat for tactical reasons. You aren't allowed to bear away, though, if there is a boat to leeward which you will impede, so if you overtake a slower boat to windward, then catch a big gust (especially when flying an assy), you either have to rag it, swim or both...

If you are overtaking a boat to leeward and the wind drops, then you can alter course to suit. However, as it is likely that at least part of the wind dropping will be because you are in the lee of the other boat, you'd have to be pretty damn sure of yourself when taking it to protest, as altering course because of the other boat's wind shadow is not proper course.
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