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Pin the Tail on the PY Donkey

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Poll Question: What PY should be used for this class?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [34.29%]
15 [42.86%]
3 [8.57%]
1 [2.86%]
4 [11.43%]
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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pin the Tail on the PY Donkey
    Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 10:50am
I was going to ask about personal handicaps, but I'll start another thread on the subject.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 10:09am
Originally posted by iiitick

This year three of the races have been won by a very enthusiastic, quick learning chap whose handicap is based on the figures calculated from his first years sailing. .

Interesting. At our club that's exactly what we want the personal handicap to do: identify the sailors who are improving most year on year. It also provides milestones for young sailors in club racing. See the grin on a young ladswhen he gets in a faster band than his father...
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 9:07am
No, just update the PY's more regularly. I do ours after every pursuit race.
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 8:42am
At our club we all have personal handicaps based on previous results. We use these in four pursuit races each year. I hate them! I am perfectly aware that I am total crap and I don't need to be told officially. If I ever won I would feel patronised. I don't need trophies that much! The 'former boy' no longer bothers with them because he kept on winning and is now handicapped out of it completely. Not someones prejudiced, just what the figures throw up. This year three of the races have been won by a very enthusiastic, quick learning chap whose handicap is based on the figures calculated from his first years sailing. At the agm I will vote for removal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 8:20am
Originally posted by iGRF


The skill level of the sailor by virtue of the particular class is so very wide.

Moth Sailors, Skiff Sailors, v Miracle and Mirror Sailors? The very idea these days is absurd it might have worked back in the day when sailing skills were not to disimilar.

Except that it is quite possible that a moderately successful club-level MPS or Moth sailor might not cut it in a Mirror or Miracle. The skills required are quite different.

Sailing the former is all about athleticism and balance, which would be largely wasted in a Mirror, where it's more about keeping the boat trucking while plotting the perfect course - sounds like the perfect boat for you, in fact.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 14 at 12:05am
This discussion just serves to underline the total stupidity upon which it is based.

You simply cannot compare boat and sailor combinations, even taking averages of the given class.

The skill level of the sailor by virtue of the particular class is so very wide.

Moth Sailors, Skiff Sailors, v Miracle and Mirror Sailors? The very idea these days is absurd it might have worked back in the day when sailing skills were not to disimilar.

There should be a class called 'yardstick' sailors, those who never sail class racing, they should re-define this and quite honestly arguing the point here is like getting Turkeys to vote for Christmas, I think I'm done trying to explain the stupidity of it all. Enough data? Big enough sample? You've had thirty years data and not gotten anywhere and all that's happening quite clearly is the dumbed down classes are getting dumber whilst the hot shot classes are getting faster, how does that help any individual in his boat sailing against his regular comrades to race on even terms.

Which was the very mission statement of the original system, something you all seem to have lost sight of.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 14 at 9:30pm
Those charts were just from my club data, so they aren't that represenative, based on only twenty or so boats. To my knowledge no study has been done on this to date. It's something that I'd like to do in future, hopefully we'll be able to find a way of doing something with the Py data.
From what I can make out the finishing spread in most champ fleets is about 20-25%. However I'm beginning to wonder if that's principally caused by Mark roundings forcing people into line astern and dirty air effect.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 14 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by JimC

To bring right back to the start, what the Py sytem actually gives us at the moment is a D response, with the actual point located between A and B, but rather nearer B.

Jim, do you know if there is enough available information to show the slope or distribution of a range of popular classes of different styles of boat? 

You showed graphs of Laser and Solo performance that were very similar, in which case both those classes would probably be affected in the same manner if we chose A, B,C or D. But what about the slopes for classes like Mirrors, Ents, 400s, 200s, Merlins, 29ers, 800s, and Radials? One can imagine that the effect of differences in sailor skill level (not the actual difference in sailor skill level) may be significantly different across that range of classes; an average sailor chucked in a Laser may finish quite close to the leaders, an average sailor chucked in a Moth probably can't finish.*

If the difference between classes meant that the distance between the points changes a lot from class to class it would be interesting to see, and also perhaps very significant in this discussion. If the distance from A to D is much higher in some classes than others (as one would assume) then wouldn't it underline that in some classes the "average sailor" can never be as competitive as the average sailor in other classes, unless the best sailor in some classes is given an advantage over the best sailors in other classes?

It would also be interesting to see whether the distribution changes between classes of similar speed and style but different popularity; is there a difference between the distribution of Solo sailors compared to OK sailors or Streaker sailors?

If such differences exist it could affect the discussion. If the location of one point was more consistent across classes it could also be interesting.

Apologies if I haven't made myself clear.


* Edit - I chose that example poorly as DNFs and extremely poor performances don't count in PY calcs, but the gap between the best sailor and the typical sailor does appear to open up dramatically in some classes.


Edited by Chris 249 - 15 Nov 14 at 8:23pm
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ChrisI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 14 at 6:13pm
Btw, just as an aside.... those on this forum who don't already know the issues with a measurement based system should have a talk with those who run them and have long term experience of managing them.

The guys who run IRC, I can report, are very nice people.

And when the idea of such a system for dinghies is mentioned.... they have very very VERY firm advice!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 14 at 5:45pm
Whilst I agree with point B being the preferred option, to draw any conclusions from the poll highlights the main issue with PY, if the sample is too small you will have dodgy PY numbers.  

Conclusion; bigger the sample, more useful the results.  if your club does not submit returns you have no right to criticise.
Happily living in the past
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