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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Inland vs Sea
    Posted: 31 Oct 14 at 11:35am
Enthusiasm and encouragement from the regular sailors particularly toward the back of the fleet sailors, on the water advice, sharing a drink in the bar will have a far greater effect on numbers than any particular PY system. 

Any newbie looking at these threads would wonder what the profanity it is all about.

Whilst I accept that a newbie might buy into one of the new oem classes which might often doom them to handicap racing, maybe they would be better sailing in a one design fleet where they can more clearly identify their progress.  

That is not to say that there are not any good oem one design fleets, just that oem manufacturers have to rely on a positive approach to handicap racing in order to get their product into the market.

Also, there is a tendency for everyone in a one design fleet to work together to make the fleet stronger, which in some clubs at least, try to bring the back of the fleet to the front.
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 14 at 11:12am
Well, it was principally the PH thing that I didn't agree with. Agree with most else. But by no means the end of he world as we know it!

I don't know if other clubs experience what we have at BSC in that we have many, many perfectly serviceable boats in the boatpark that only see the light of day when the covers are blown off. It might be the case that we already have tried to do something in this respect, I don't know, but finding out why these people have ceased to participate (but still cough up their fees each year) might yield some ideas for getting people who already have the resources there back into some degree/form of participation. And given the right format and excuse to go racing - well, 125-odd boats for Barts Bash suggests there is something that could be built on.
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 14 at 10:35am
Blimey  - So I was at least  partly wrong on BSC wednesday evening numbers ... well it can happen to all of us I guess Cry.   (I must be thinking back a bit further !)

So BSCs numbers are now declining on Wednesdays as well.  Still it really is a pity that nothing seems to being done to attract more from Wednesday evenings to Sundays.  Looks like any initiative by the club would therefore  be a complete waste of time, nothing at all can be done or could ever work ... and we are all inevitably doomed.  

Looks like a cruising lead-mine then .. when I start fall off my perch more often ! 

Mike L.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 8:43pm
We have a once a month series which is dual scored personal handicap and standard handicap. The average turnout is a tad higher than for other series, but not spectacularly so.
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 7:41pm
Mike

Yes, I think we can agree that we want the same outcome. But I don't agree that personal handicapping encourages people to take part per se. A quick look at the results...the highest number of starters for the Weds eve pursuit this year was 59 (as last year). The max number of starters for during the Summer Series (Sundays) was 56 - at a time of year when many are away at other events. The highest number of starters on a Weds was 82 in 2009. In the 5 years since an average of the highest number of starters was 63. In the 5 years before that it was 70.So, no, personal handicapping isn't attracting more people. And on the rare occasions that personal handicapping has been employed during Sunday racing, its proved a big turn off. And whilst those less serious sailors may not give a hoot as to the club's racing reputation, I suspect those that do race seriously probably do. And the reason why Wednesday's are popular I suggest is more because you can chill out after work, have a leisurely sail, have a nice dinner afterwards and enjoy a good atmosphere is the clubhouse. Not because you've just enjoyed a personal handicap race.Many of those people will have had their fix of sailing for the week and then use precious time to do other things at the weekend. I do believe that the club should offer variety in its activities but I disagree with your perception that because lots of people take part on a Wednesday evening, that it is because of the personal handicapping and therefore worth doing more frequently.
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 6:48pm
For handicap racing fleets a little variation in the format now and again is no bad thing - no doubt lots of sailors can be put off knowing that so and so in their XXXX will win again etc. Slip in a persuit race or personal handicap race now and then and they might be keener ?


For those who get worked up about any fiddling from the norm - they should stick to class racing.

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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 5:05pm

Hi Paul

BSC has goodish numbers by any standard but the Sunday numbers are at a lower level than a few years back .... to give context.  It is a relative numbers problem.  

The club is a large one but Sunday racing is not doing as well as Wednesday evening racing (when we can get between 70-90 boats on the water) Recently Barts Bash was also, I think, supported locally by something like 125ish – one of the very largest.  

So the people are already within the club but many, possibly the less vocal majority, don't appear to find normal Sunday fleet racing as attractive as personal pursuits on Wednesday evenings or even Barts Bash.    

The approach I'm suggesting is to make Sunday hopefully more attractive for them by periodically running the format they already prefer.   Say once a month on Sunday at first.  Much easier to persuade them to try their preffered style of racing first .. but on a different day.   Should then be easier to 'encourage them' to occasionally try 'fleet' racing if they are there in the first place.   The rest is good fleet captain stuff etc as you say.  

Members clubs are obviously for members – all of them.  Would it be too much of a sacrifice for the 'die-hards' though ?  Wink

Mike L.

PS - off thread of course so enough said off on this tangent ...  but decent breeze forecast for the weekend so mabye we will be back on subject again soon ! 




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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by sargesail

Slow boat: Boatspeed 4 knots.  Tide 2 Knots. 1NM against the tide = 30 minutes.</span>
With the tide = 12 minutes.  Race time: 42 minutes.
FAst boat: Boatspeed 5 knots.  Tide 2 knots.  1Nm against the tide = 20 minutes!!!
With the tide = 8.57 decimal minutes.  Race time 28.57 decimal  minutes.
Sail it non-tidal - 2 NM for slow boat in 30 minutes.  The slow boat is 12 minutes (40%) slower in the tide!  2NM for the fast boat  takes 24 minutes - it's only 4.57 decimal minutes slower (19%) in the tide


Yes that's the long and the short of it, I did an article a few years ago explaining all this, blowed if I can find it now. With a few more examples it becomes clear that the speeds form an exponential curve, the faster the boat the less effect it has,
Here on the Sussex coast it's round the cans in a tidal flow of between 1 and 3 knots, we're effectively going backwards and forwards through the tide.




I found it so I'll post, it expands on sargesails maths.

A simple chart demonstrating the figures for hypothetical water vehicles travelling with and against tide.

Vehicles travel 10 NM against 1 knot of tide. They then turn around and travel 10 NM back with tide to their origin.


Cool Transient.  And of course the real thing to jump out is that it is the displacement speed/planing speed jump that really makes the difference.  It explains, for example, why even a moderately well sailed Musto Skiff cleans up on handicap if you don't adjust for tide when racing against 400s and slowers.

Especially as both our versions assume a reaching course - that is to say no tacking and no assym angles downwind.  When you look at VMG to windard in tide you see when the slwer boats really get killed.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 3:18pm
We found at Hunts that the success to Sunday racing is:

1) Where a class has fleet status get the fleet captains to go around and speak to people, gently badgering them to get their boats out on the water.

2) For PY racing just encourage people out. Let them know that the racing is as much about being out on the water and having a sail as competing to be first. There are always battles to be had throughout the fleet regardless of the relative PYs of a boat.

3) Get the kids out there. They are the future of any sailing club.

4) Hold training sessions and racing clinics, wha seems to stop a few people from racing is the fear of getting it wrong or making an idiot of themself on that water. 

Just a few ideas.....
Paul
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 2:36pm
Oinks

I think we mostly want the same thing here - more people racing on ANY day of the week.

Personal handicap does work at BSC and is proven, there is hardly an imaginable argument that it is not.  Now if the challenge is to increase the attractiveness of racing on Sunday, where we can see a growing challenge is the real problem.  So what should be proposed for the future is the question ? 

More of the same, a model that is arguably in decline and less attractive to newcomers to racing, will not turn things around at BSC or any other club in the view of a great many.  The 'good old days' will not return any time soon and the sport at club level has to adapt.  'Open' racing in fleets is still there in abundance for those who want that 'fix' anyway - it is simply not a case of 'either /or'.

The club model might have to be a bit different in the future.  Increasingly in handicap fleets with a good smattering of alternative racing formats, including a higher proportion of personal handicapped races on weekends as well as in those Summer Wednesday evening ones .....  Class Open meetings and Championships for the really 'keen' of course but you might need to be prepared to travel a bit more.   

Frankly potential  'might be racers' don't worry a jot about 'club reputation' - they want an enjoyable time, sociable company, often family involving, good surroundings and a bit of a sailing based challenge.  It is a hobby, past-time and diversion amongst many possible from the daily grind for the majority – some may well become the ‘classic’ Sunday racers as well in time, but you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand why many do not persist  beyond the ‘newbie’ or ‘occasional’  stage. 

Sailing clubs do not have to change ... but those that do will be more likely to survive and prosper.  They really can appear less than inclusive or welcoming, despite what any of us might think.   Standard racing formats can appear stiff, rigid and ‘newbie’ unfriendly.  Nobody is suggesting the abolition of ‘standard’ racing btw ! There are many things clubs can do to encourage – but it might need a few ‘old guard’ ideas being shaken up.

CU there .....  on Sunday  Wink

Mike L.
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