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Protests and the first reasonable opportunity
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Protests and the first reasonable opportunity
    Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 10:59am
Brass,

The rule says that, in order to protest, the PC, does not have to establish that serious damage WAS caused by the incident, but that there MAY have been serious damage. A hearing is required to establish that serious damage was caused!

We agreed, based on the evidence given while discussing validity, that the outboard bracket had been damaged and had been displaced as a result of the contact. This may have caused damage to the transom. The boat relies on the motor to enter the marina, and cannot sail until repairs are carried out.

Both parties agreed that the damage may be serious.

I agree that we were doing all we could to hear a protest that both parties wished to be heard.
Gordon
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Assassin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 10:28am
Rupert, the others are spot on but could I just add that because you're going to have to write the sail number/bow number on the protest form, it's not a bad idea to hail that number straight after the word protest. Two reasons, firstly, it helps you to remember the number, (embarrassing listing the wrong boat) and secondly it gives the hail a bit of determination and credibility. Doesn't hurt in the room either.
This is certainly not a rule, just a tip.

Cheers.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 10:20am
Originally posted by gordon

To support Brass - protest committees do try not to throw out protests on a technicality.

An example from yesterday:

There was a port and starboard incident near the finsh line There was damage to both boats but it was not obvious. The boat on port took turns then informed the committee boat of his intention to protest, then chased after the starboard tack boat to inform her of an intention to lodge a protest.

Evidence was given that the out board bracket had been damaged with possible damage to the transom requiring inspection.

The incident involved small cruisers sailing out of a marina which requires boats to enter harbour under motor.

We declared the protest invalid on the grounds that there was no hail of protest at the first reasonable opportunity.

However, we also found that the incident may have resulted in serious damage. So th PC protested under rule 60.3(a)1. 

So did the protest committee determine that the damage was serious as required by rule 63.5?

What criteria were satisfied to persuade you that the damage was serious? <g>.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 10:06am
To support Brass - protest committees do try not to throw out protests on a technicality.

An example from yesterday:

There was a port and starboard incident near the finsh line There was damage to both boats but it was not obvious. The boat on port took turns then informed the committee boat of his intention to protest, then chased after the starboard tack boat to inform her of an intention to lodge a protest.

Evidence was given that the out board bracket had been damaged with possible damage to the transom requiring inspection.

The incident involved small cruisers sailing out of a marina which requires boats to enter harbour under motor.

We declared the protest invalid on the grounds that there was no hail of protest at the first reasonable opportunity.

However, we also found that the incident may have resulted in serious damage. So th PC protested under rule 60.3(a)1. The original protest alleged that the starboard boat did not take action to avoid contact. We were presented with convincing evidence that she did bear away. Protest dismissed. The important point was that the PC provided a means for the 2 competitors to air their grievances and resolve the issue between them. Job done.
Gordon
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Rupert

 Hang on, if I shout "protest", but nothing else, when rounding a crowded mark, all I am going to get in return is "who?" and "why?",

Or else four boats will peel out and do penalty turns <g>

Originally posted by Rupert

and if I refuse to answer these questions, the 1st time the person I am protesting is going to know it is them and why they are being protested is on the shore after the race - certainly not at the first opportunity.

No.  Nine times out of ten a boat that has broken a rule knows damn fine that she has or may have broken a rule.

By hailing 'Protest' at the first reasonable opportunity you have complied with what the rules require for a valid protest.  Note, as we have pointed out previously, the rules don't require that the hail be heard, just that it be made.

Of course the rules expect (to the extent that 'rules' can be said to 'expect' anything) that the hail will be heard and understood, but they don't require that. 

Originally posted by Rupert

I would expect at that point for a committee to throw the whole thing out.
 
Then you have a sadly low expectation of protest committees. If that happens you should appeal, and expect your appeal to be successful.

Note the point that Gordon and I have been emphasising:   protest committees should try to hear as many protests as possible, not reject as many protests as possible.

Originally posted by Rupert

Now, if the boat in question had actually rammed me, I would expect the word "protest" to be sufficient, as both boat and reason are very, very obvious.

If a boat has rammed you, it would be very unusual for it not to have caused damage obvious to both boats, thus rendering the hail of 'Protest' unnecessary under rule 61.1( a )(4).
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 8:30am
Hang on, if I shout "protest", but nothing else, when rounding a crowded mark, all I am going to get in return is "who?" and "why?", and if I refuse to answer these questions, the 1st time the person I am protesting is going to know it is them and why they are being protested is on the shore after the race - certainly not at the first opportunity. I would expect at that point for a committee to throw the whole thing out.

Now, if the boat in question had actually rammed me, I would expect the word "protest" to be sufficient, as both boat and reason are very, very obvious.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 14 at 1:40am
Originally posted by Peaky

When one hails "protest!" is it also necessary to explain to the protestee what rule they are alleged to have infringed?

Originally posted by Peaky

If they don't know what they are accused of how can they decide if they want to do turns or not?   

Yes it is important that a protestee knows what she is being protested for, so that she can decide whether or not she wishes to take a penalty for the incident. If she knows exactly when she did whatever it is that is alleged to have broken a rule, she has a good chance of inferring what or how she may have broken a rule, and thus make a reasonable decision about whether or not to take an on-water penalty.

It's nice if there is a full hail:  "Protest, Sail Number 45678, mark-room", but the only required word is "Protest".

if you hail 'Protest' immediately after the incident, the other boat knows that she is being protested for what she did immediately before the hail (crossing close, bearing down, squeezing you into a mark, ...) So there is no need to describe the incident. The longer in time between the incident and the hail, the more difficult it is for the protestee to know what she is being protested for. 
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Assassin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 11:25pm
Well, if they have an understanding of the rules and they believe they are in the right, then do nothing and continue racing.
If they don't understand rules then prepare to get dizzy. Plus, if they don't know the rules, no point in shouting them out on the water.

Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 11:14pm
If they don't know what they are accused of how can they decide if they want to do turns or not?   
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Assassin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 14 at 11:01pm
No, not at all, the less said the better. Save it for the room.

Concentrate on your race as depending on the incident, you may have already lost time and places.

Cheers
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