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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Inner & Outer distance marks
    Posted: 24 Jun 14 at 4:25pm
ouch! Shows the problem with unintended consequences of re-writing rules!

Also highlights an issue with using (kindly lent) private yachts for committee boats. Dedicated committee boats will generally be far less worried about the odd "ding" arising from someone miscalculating.
-_
Al
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 14 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by alstorer

A recent event I was at had no IDM but did have in the SIs that touching the committee boat would be grounds for instant disqualification with no hearing. 

Is this SI compliant with the RRS?

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by JimC

I think we'd need to see the exact wording, but I'm sure I've seen legit SIs that provide for DSQ without a hearing.

Whether its wise or fair might be another discussion!

I have seen this at the Scorpion Nationals. Stated that between the IDM and the committee boat was deemd non-navigable and any boat entering this was expected to retire immediately or would be given a DNE.

Didn't prevent a lot of push and shoving at the end of the line though!.

Rule 86.1( a ) lists the rules that SI CANNOT change.

SI can change anything in Part 5 Protests etc except rule 69 and rules 70 and 71 Appeals.

So your SI can rewrite the whole protest and penalisation process if you are silly enough.

Providing for DNE without a hearing, I agree may be unwise and unfair.

Interesting if the SI 'deem' the space between the RC vessel and the distance mark to be non-navigable.

You then have a starting mark (the RC Vessel) or possibly two starting marks (the RC Vessel and the distance mark) NOT surrounded by navigable water, so rules 18, 19, and 20 apply, in their entirety to the starting marks when boats are approaching them to start (Preamble to Section C).

That is, they have just re-introduced the Pro-Barging Rule.


Edited by Brass - 23 Jun 14 at 11:49pm
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 14 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think we'd need to see the exact wording, but I'm sure I've seen legit SIs that provide for DSQ without a hearing.

Whether its wise or fair might be another discussion!

I have seen this at the Scorpion Nationals. Stated that between the IDM and the committee boat was deemd non-navigable and any boat entering this was expected to retire immediately or would be given a DNE.

Didn't prevent a lot of push and shoving at the end of the line though!.
Paul
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 14 at 2:15pm
I think we'd need to see the exact wording, but I'm sure I've seen legit SIs that provide for DSQ without a hearing.

Whether its wise or fair might be another discussion!


Edited by JimC - 23 Jun 14 at 2:20pm
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 14 at 1:36pm
A recent event I was at had no IDM but did have in the SIs that touching the committee boat would be grounds for instant disqualification with no hearing.

Is this SI compliant with the RRS?
-_
Al
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 14 at 8:25am
The problem does not usually arise when boats are approaching the line to startas they have to pass both committee boat and inner limit mark on the same side. As the inner limit mark is a starting mark the RC will consider any boat passing the wrong side of the inner limit mark as DNS

Should the race committee wish to prevent boats coming between the mark and the committee boat at other times then they can add an additional SI. However, they would have to protest any boats that break the SI you propose - which I find race officers are often reluctant to do.
Gordon
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 14 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by gordon

The RYA reccomend the following SI:

'When a buoy is laid near the committee boat it is a starting limit mark that shall be left on the same side as the nearby committee boat.'

This means that the buoy is a mark as defined in RRS.

Does it help to add 'Boats shall not pass between the mark and the committee vessel'?
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 14 at 4:43pm
The RYA reccomend the following SI:

'When a buoy is laid near the committee boat it is a starting limit mark that shall be left on the same side as the nearby committee boat.'

This means that the buoy is a mark as defined in RRS.
Gordon
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 14 at 3:29pm
Brass gets there again. 2 boat length example, I have used to my advantage before. I have only ever seen this as an issue on a shore based start. On a committee boat a rope as described puts people off, but have seen the blue and cyan examples pulled off   

Andy.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 14 at 3:19pm
Sorry, I can't visualise the situation described on the mythical front page.

Here are some relevant references.

Race Management Manual

L.3.3 Inner Limit Mark

If an Inner Limit Mark ("ILM") is required it may now be laid. This mark protects the Race
Committee Signal Boat from competitors. An Inner Limit Mark should be set as near as
possible to the line but never more than a half boat length to leeward of it. If it is too far to
leeward, boats may be able to pass between the mark and the line towards the Race
Committee Signal Boat while still satisfying RRS 29.1 and 30.1.

To protect the Race Committee Signal Boat an alternative is to attach the mark to the
Committee Boat on a short line. This becomes a permanent attachment and is considered
part of the Race Committee Signal Boat. It also keeps boats away from a stern anchor warp
if one is used.

RYA Appeal 2004/9
The ends of the starting line are as stated in the sailing
instructions, and determine the beginning of the
extension of the starting line for rule 30.1 and the base
of the triangle in rules 30.2 and 30.3, unless the sailing
instructions say otherwise.

SUMMARY OF THE FACTS

The sailing instructions said that the starting line was
between two staffs, but that boats should start between
two limit marks.

In a start under rule 30.3, Black Flag Rule, during the
last minute before the starting signal, several boats were
sailing in the triangle formed by the starting line (as
defined in the sailing instructions) and the first mark,
but not within the triangle formed by the limit marks
and the first mark. These boats were scored as BFD and
asked for redress, which was denied. The protest
committee asked for confirmation of its decision.

DECISION

The decision of the protest committee is confirmed.

The ends of the starting line in rules 30.1, 30.2 and 30.3
are those specified in the sailing instructions, and not
any limit or distance mark, unless the sailing
instructions explicitly change rule 30.

Q&A 2010-033 (Lapsed)
C 003 Q&A 2010-33
Published: 6 October 2010

Situation

The sailing instructions at an event state:

‘An inner limit mark may be laid, but not necessarily on the starting line. If laid, yachts shall pass
the inner limit mark to starboard when starting’.

Note: The diagram shows different boats, but they are all independent examples. No boats are
OCS at the starting signal, and no special starting rule applies.

Question

Which, if any, of the various boats in the attached diagram (green, blue, red, yellow, magenta,
cyan), break rule 28.2.




Answer

None. Although boats are racing from the preparatory signal, a starting mark (including a starting
line limit mark which are sometimes laid to restrict the length of the actual starting line) has no
required side before a boat is approaching the starting line from its pre-start side to start (rule
28.2). At that time, the starting marks get a required side, although they don’t yet 'begin, bound or
end’ the leg a boat is on’.

The string test does not start until the boat starts and rule 28.1 says that 'after starting and until
finishing ..... 'the string must pass each mark on the required side.

For a starting line inner (or outer) limit mark to have a required side, a boat must not be able to
pass between it and the starting line if it is on the pre-start side of the starting line or be
somewhere within a reasonable distance on the course side of the starting line.

The sailing instruction for this event uses the words ‘yachts shall pass the inner limit mark to
starboard when starting’.

Therefore, if a boat can pass and clear the starting line limit mark before she actually starts, as in
each of the situations described here, she can not be penalised for breaking that instruction and
would be exonerated due to the error in the placement of the mark by the race committee.


Edited by Brass - 21 Jun 14 at 10:55am
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