New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: When all boats retire.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

When all boats retire.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When all boats retire.
    Posted: 12 Feb 14 at 9:11am
Brass - if you read my reply carefully I said that when there is no time limit the Race Committee cannot abandon a race simply on the grounds that there are no finishers. The other conditions for abandoning a race as set out in rule 32.1 still apply.

If the SIs allow for different scores for  DNC as compared to those boats that did come to the starting area this is an important point. It might well be deemed unfair to the boats that did make the effort to turn up  to abandon the race.
Gordon
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 14 at 7:30am
Originally posted by Brass

I disagree with Gordon.  The race committee may abandon a race any time after the starting signal for any reason directly affecting the fairness of the competition,

I think most, even on this forum, maybe even on SA, would agree that abandoning the race after because everyone has gone home is a reasonable action!
[added later - umm, yes, I take Gordon's point in the next post]

Edited by JimC - 12 Feb 14 at 12:01pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 14 at 3:25am
Originally posted by Rupert

At club level, there is certainly a difference between "racing being abandoned" and an official "race abandoned". One involves a decision by the race officer, the other a lot of cold sailors sitting looking out of the window and deciding that trying to sail in that gale/through that ice is a bad idea. Like Blue One's club, it is rare that a race would be abandoned if people were keen to sail, simply because if people are keen to sail, chances are it is sailable, therefore race abandonment usually takes the form of people getting back in their cars and drifting off home.
A really good race officer is one who, on a cold, wet and windy day flys Flag N at just the right moment so that everyone except the Club Lunatic cheers up, has a rum or two while complaining about the race committee being a bunch of wooses, and then goes home quite happy that they didn't go sailing on a miserable afternoon.  That sure bets the RC laying a start line and course and nobody turning up.

There really can't be a difference between your 'unofficial' situation and the 'official' or formal situation.  Whether a race is formally abandoned affects number of races for a series, number of races for one or more discards, and any average points that boats may have been awarded, so you can't just let it drift.

Originally posted by Rupert

On this OP subject, though - 1 boat has to finish for the retireds of everyone else to count, otherwise the race is simply scored like it never was? If that boat subsequently retires, or is protested, the finish still counts, though. That right?

If nobody goes out to sail, or if some do, but none sail the course in accordance with rule 28 and finish, then, if the SI prescribe a time limit, the Race Committee shall abandon the race (rule 35).  If one boat finishes, the race committee shall score the race (rule 90.3( a )).

Gordon says that if no boat finishes and the SI do NOT prescribe a time limit, then the race committee must score the race and may not abandon the race.

I disagree with Gordon.  The race committee may abandon a race any time after the starting signal for any reason directly affecting the fairness of the competition, and, if no boat finishes, may do so without considering the consequences for competitors (rule 32.1).  In my opinion, by prescribing the number of races to make a series, and the number of races necessary for drops the race committee has decided what constitutes a fair structure of a competition and it is farcial to include in that structure a race that has no finishers.  In these circumstance the race committee has a discretion, which, in my opinion it should exercise, to abandon the race with no finishers.

The difference is, of course, in a club series scored under rule A9, that in a race with no finishers, :
  • boats that started will be scored DNF with scores of number of boats that came to the starting area plus 1, and boats that did not come to the starting area will get entrants plus 1.
  • if the race is abandoned, then no boats will be scored anything at all.
Note:  different if you are using a High Points system.

And, yes, if you have a finisher that subsequently retires or is disqualified, the race still counts.


Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by redders

What would be your thoughts if it was a pursuit race? Is a boat that is capsized at the finish signal still racing?


Case 5 in the Case book specifically covers boats that are anchored, but includes this
Answer 1
Yes. In the preamble to Part 4, the word ‘racing’ is printed in bold italics and, therefore, it is being used in the sense stated in the Definitions (see Terminology in the Introduction). The definition Racing makes no mention of a boat that is anchored, aground, capsized or otherwise not progressing in the race. Therefore anchored boats are still ‘racing’, which means that they are protected by rule 23 and governed by the racing rules including rules 42.1 and 45.

So you can be anchored, aground, capsized or otherwise not progressing in the pursuit race and still be finished, depending on exactly what the finishing system that particular pursuit race is using.
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:53pm
Rupert,

1. There is a difference between a race being abandoned by the race committee and what you describe which is a race in which no competitors came to the starting area. If the race is scored (because of the SIs) then they would all be DNC
2. You are right - except that if there is no time limit Race committee cannot bandon the race for that reason.

Redders,

Unless the SIs say something different (common in team racing) a boat that has capsized is still racing. Even if she receives outside help she is still racing until she retires.
Gordon
Back to Top
redders View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 30 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 41
Post Options Post Options   Quote redders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:47pm
What would be your thoughts if it was a pursuit race? Is a boat that is capsized at the finish signal still racing?
The older I get the faster I was!
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Rupert

On this OP subject, though - 1 boat has to finish for the retireds of everyone else to count, otherwise the race is simply scored like it never was? If that boat subsequently retires, or is protested, the finish still counts, though. That right?

Believe so. Unless club SIs have altered the rules, as they're allowed to and IME often do.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 8:28am
At club level, there is certainly a difference between "racing being abandoned" and an official "race abandoned". One involves a decision by the race officer, the other a lot of cold sailors sitting looking out of the window and deciding that trying to sail in that gale/through that ice is a bad idea. Like Blue One's club, it is rare that a race would be abandoned if people were keen to sail, simply because if people are keen to sail, chances are it is sailable, therefore race abandonment usually takes the form of people getting back in their cars and drifting off home.

On this OP subject, though - 1 boat has to finish for the retireds of everyone else to count, otherwise the race is simply scored like it never was? If that boat subsequently retires, or is protested, the finish still counts, though. That right?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Blue One View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 09 Nov 13
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 317
Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:35am
Brass, the phrase " never had to abandon a race" is were the confusion arose. You took it to mean we had reckless sailors and were a reckless club. While in fact we are the exact opposite. All of our regular sailors have to run races and we( the sailors) would never put one of our own in the position were they would have to abandon a race.
No hard feelings. :)


Edited by Blue One - 11 Feb 14 at 12:55am
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 11:15pm
Brass - you reinforce my argument:

in a race with no time limit the race committee cannot abandon a race simply because there are no finishers. The race shall be scored and all boats will receive an appropriate score as per RRSA5. This may have some importance when a series is being scored under rule A9.

There is nothing in the rules that obliges the race committee to set a time limit. If you read J2.1(7) this states "the time limit, if any, for finishing" (my underlining). Some organisers of offshore races, for instance, prefer not (rather than fail) to set a time limit.

On the other hand, if one boat does finish  the race may still be abandoned by the race committee (subjecy to the obligation to consider the consequences for all boats: rule 32.1) or the protest committee (after taking evidence from appropriate sources: rule 64.2)
Gordon
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy