Sail Juice 2013-14 Series

Re the Laser handicap - not sure that the Laser itself has changed much since I sailed one in the 70s/80s,  but for sure some of the boats I used to race against (Streakers, Phantoms, Fireballs, Solos) have changed a heck of a lot !    On our puddle at least the Lasers used to be pretty competitive on handicap,  but I really can't recall the last time a Laser beat the Solos/Miracles/Streakers etc. So I'm not too surprised to see the Laser handicap go up a few points.

Re the SJ handicaps - I don't have a problem with local handicaps that are based on a reasonable sample size and have some science/thought behind them. Which the SJ numbers seem to have. What I do have a problem with is small clubs like mine making 50 point PY adjustments based on statistically irrelevant (ie 1 or 2 boat) sampling. The RYA PYs aren't perfect but I've got more confidence in them than some of the gerrymandering that my sailing committee have come up with !

Re GRF - the forum can be a bit bland at times, he's stirred things up by being provocative and has generated forum activity, no bad thing in my book.

Originally posted by transient For the Disaffected:Google "decline of online message boards forums" most are in the same boat/pram/car/ I've got thoughts as to why this is......part of me would like to scapegoat individuals but that's all it would be, scapegoating. Many of the "controversial discussions" on here do happen in a confrontational, competitive way, they quite often become standup pissing events. They are not conducted in the spirit of co-operation or mutual progress, they never have been in my experience (eight years on here). Some posts historically have even degenerated in out and out collective bullying..........but it's exactly the same on any other male dominated sporting forum. This is not the reason for the decline.The only place that discussion groups seem to be on the increase is on FB in the form of groups. They are inferior IMO and don't have the archived resources but it's what people seem to prefer. .....as for the Standard Laser handicap, the only Lasers that have ever beaten me consistently have done so because they were sailed better. How the hell you expect to beat a youngster who has done an Olympic campaign is beyond me. As and old fart of similar age to me Graeme, you're not even going to get close, live with it.

Well I think it's wishful thinking, folk come and go, only Mark can tell historically wether the forum is any less busy now than it was, it certainly seems busier to me than when I first came, compared to the Boards forum that has certainly slowed down.

Whatever, I've made some great connections here and have learned absolutely stacks, I don't recall names like Martin Wadhams ever posting here, nor Dan Holman, I enjoy reading what you all get up to, I know you know my dinghy put downs are tongue in cheek, how can they be anything else given I'm one as well.

As to how do I expect to beat a youngster? I've been regarded as old virtually my entire career and have always tried and sometimes succeeded in beating youngsters, it's what drew me to sailing in the first place, it offers the means to out think tactically the exuberance of youth. Anyway if you don't keep trying you end up dying is my motto.

As to the negative jibes, I'll live with that, it happens every month at home as well.

Originally posted by transient For the Disaffected: Google "decline of online message boards forums" most are in the same boat/pram/car/ I've got thoughts as to why this is......part of me would like to scapegoat individuals but that's all it would be, scapegoating. Many of the "controversial discussions" on here do happen in a confrontational, competitive way, they quite often become standup pissing events. They are not conducted in the spirit of co-operation or mutual progress, they never have been in my experience (eight years on here). Some posts historically have even degenerated in out and out collective bullying..........but it's exactly the same on any other male dominated sporting forum. This is not the reason for the decline. The only place that discussion groups seem to be on the increase is on FB in the form of groups. They are inferior IMO and don't have the archived resources but it's what people seem to prefer.  .....as for the Standard Laser handicap, the only Lasers that have ever beaten me consistently have done so because they were sailed better. How the hell you expect to beat a youngster who has done an Olympic campaign is beyond me. As and old fart of similar age to me Graeme, you're not even going to get close, live with it.

+1

Originally posted by Fraggle But I bet that guy still wouldn't get near the front at a major handicap event on the old handicaps.  How often have you seen a laser sailor win at a major handicap event? - incredibly rarely.  The laser handicap needed tweaking.  Even with the new handicaps the laser sailors aren't running away with the events they turn up at (and some very good guys have shown up).   I always turned up to the sailjuice events with the pure aim of getting a decent result against other radials as I knew I had no chance on handicap.  The SJ handicaps give a decent radial/laser sailor a better chance but I still just look to other lasers/radials to gauge how I have done.

No, Fraggle, I don't think he would and he probably isn't skill wise much different to yourself, but he wouldn't expect to anyway, the PY system is supposed to be to allow clubs to race against each other which they/we do. Major handicap events are or always were in my day showcases for new stuff, a chance to keep your hand in over the winter if you're a coastal club or wanted to get 'noticed' not a vessel for setting standards that trickle down to the rest of the world, which is my fear.
The Laser like our Windsurfer Class is a one design, it can't be expected to keep up with modern developments, nor can it expect to have it both ways be a great class race vehicle and a handicap winning device. Times have moved on, boats have become faster, those events run big courses where legs can get stretched, how could you expect a Laser to compete with a foiling moth, what they do is an entirely different sport, like kite boarding or windsurfing as it was back in the day.
They've knocked the foiler down to 500 now which is the right approach, but moving that one way and the Laser the other way makes no sense to either craft.
What is the standard they are using to to judge?
Pure Logic would dictate if you want the Laser nearer the front then everything else should be handicapped accordingly.

Originally posted by Blue One   i have been on this forum a long time, off and on, and nessa is spot on .