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Brass View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Rupert

What about a camera on the end of a pole sticking out aft? Purely there for the boat carrying it to be able to look at film after (or put it on here...) but not there to deliberately make port duck further. Legal?
 
Case 91 says that a give way boat must keep clear of any part of a right of way boat's equipment even if it is out of its normal position as long as it has been out of its normal position long enough for the equipment to have been seen and avoided.
 
In this case the camera and its support are equipment in normal position.
 
Originally posted by RS400atC

Towing anything behind the boat would presumably break the propulsion rule?
Although it is a known survival technique in ocean sailing.
 
That's a good one.
 
If it came up in a protest hearing I would expect to see some mumbo jumbo about 'normal act of seamanship'.
 
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

...
What on earth is a twiller and why are you abusing it by calling it lazy?
.....


Twin tiller extension.
As used on B14's and others.
Some classes not all boats have them, depending on sheet arrangement.
Fr'instance RS800's they are or were an option.
The one you're not using trails out the back of the boat.
You may not expect it to be there, but there it is, deliberately 4ft behind the boat....
 
 
Gotcha.
 
Parts of a boat's equipment may have a range of 'normal positions'.
 
I think that's in its normal position.
 
If you propelled or deliberately wiggled it so as to touch a give way boat ... Case 73  you break rule 14 and rule 2.
 
Unless you're in the UK and subject to RYA Appeal 2004/3:

A right-of-way boat (or one entitled to room or markroom) that deliberately breaks rule 14 by allowing contact to occur does not break rule 2 if damage or injury was not caused. The exoneration under rule 14( b ) is immediate and automatic.



Edited by Brass - 09 Jun 13 at 3:45am
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Brass

...
What on earth is a twiller and why are you abusing it by calling it lazy?
.....


Twin tiller extension.
As used on B14's and others.
Some classes not all boats have them, depending on sheet arrangement.
Fr'instance RS800's they are or were an option.
The one you're not using trails out the back of the boat.
You may not expect it to be there, but there it is, deliberately 4ft behind the boat....
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 10:56am
Towing anything behind the boat would presumably break the propulsion rule?
Although it is a known survival technique in ocean sailing.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 10:51am
What about a camera on the end of a pole sticking out aft? Purely there for the boat carrying it to be able to look at film after (or put it on here...) but not there to deliberately make port duck further. Legal?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 9:43am
And yet we never see this, when if this was the case it could confer a huge advantage. 

You could rig a long pole to leeward for the start to guarantee a gap to accelerate into. In the situation here you can force back into a duck several BLs longer than necessary. 

These actions seem pretty unsporting to me and clearly the community agrees or we would see them out on the course. For me any placement of a piece of equipment with only the intention of causing contact or making it harder to avoid is no on.




Edited by Quagers - 08 Jun 13 at 9:43am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Quagers

My personal opinion on this which is shaped by TR call A4 and case 73 is that if the mainsheet is trailed purely with the intention of causing contact or forcing port into a much larger duck than normal then that would be a R2 infringement. If its something the boat does every lap then there is more of an argument to be made.
 
I don't think TR Call A4 adds anything:  it's just a short gloss on Cases 73 and 74.
 
It does, however remind me that, while the normal RRS do not mention deliberately breaking a rule, rule C8.3( b ) does enable umpires to give an additional penalty for deliberately breaking a rule in Match Racing.  Curiously this doen't seem to be repeated in Appendix D for Team Racing.
 
I think the essence of Case 73 is the 'reaching out' and making contact when otherwise the give way boat is keeping clear.  Thus, reaching out with a hand or extending an extendable bowsprit, or heaving a line, so as to make contact, when that action 'could have no other intention than to cause W to break [a right of way] rule' intentionally and avoidably breaks rule 14 and in deliberately breaking a rule to gain advantage breaks rule 2.  The reservation in RYA Appeal 2004/3 that touching a boat that is so close that she is already breaking rule 11 seems to me valid and useful here.
 
I don't agree that trailing a line, or say rigging a spinnaker pole to windward without a spinnaker set, in order to increase the 'envelope' of a right of way boat that a keep clear boat must keep clear around, as long as the equipment has been out of its normal position long enough for the equipment to have been seen and avoided breaks any rule.  Case 91 says exactly that.
 
There is a very limited number of rules that depend on a boat's equipment being 'in normal position' (Definition Clear Ahead, Clear Astern, Overlap, and Definition Finish).  There is no other requirement concerning a boat sailing with her equipment in normal position in the rules.


Edited by Brass - 08 Jun 13 at 7:21am
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 2:34am
My personal opinion on this which is shaped by TR call A4 and case 73 is that if the mainsheet is trailed purely with the intention of causing contact or forcing port into a much larger duck than normal then that would be a R2 infringement. If its something the boat does every lap then there is more of an argument to be made.

Originally posted by Brass

 
I acknowledge that Gordon has in the past chid me for a certain 'colonial robustness' in my approach to sportsmanship and fair play, but it's not a natural question to me at all.  It seems to involve a primary assumption that one of our fellow sailors is a cheat.  It smacks of a certain 'my sportsmanship is bigger than your sportsmanship' approach, or to say the least an exaggerated delicacy.
 
I can't see how discussing a hypothetical question on an internet board is insulting to anyone, by discussing these sort of issues everyone learns how the rules apply in different situations and improves their knowledge out on the water. Which can in turn only be of benefit to all of us. Clearly "what if it was deliberate" was always going to be asked in relation to this question as it raises interesting points.




Edited by Quagers - 08 Jun 13 at 2:35am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 2:24am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

......
 
By deliberately trailing the sheet, then all my Case 77 worries about whether S 'caused' the contact go away:  S deliberately trailing the sheet caused the contact:  it was reasonably possible for S, by not deliberately trailing the sheet to have avoided contact.  S broke rule 14, but as previously discussed, there being no damage or injury (and except in the rather unlikely event of the sheet snagging on S and drawing the boats together, damage being unlikely) S shall be exonerated in accordance with rule 14( b ).
 
S, however, deliberately broke a rule with the intention of gaining an advantage.
 
Well, we can search the RRS and the Case Book and we will not discover any general rule or interpretation that says anything special about deliberately breaking a rule.
 
.....


What rule has S broken by trailing a sheet exactly?
Is it that different from trailing the lazy twiller?
If contact results from S deliberately trailing a sheet, hawser or fishing line, then S breaks rule 14 because it was reasonably possible for her to have avoided contact by not trailing the thing.
 
What on earth is a twiller and why are you abusing it by calling it lazy?
Originally posted by RS400atC

If S chooses to trail a warp, is P not obliged to keep clear of it, to the limit that this is possible?
[A] port tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard tack boat (rule 10).  I suppose one could argue that a sheet is part of a boat, but a hawser is not, but I'm not attracted to that.  P is obliged to keep clear of S, including any part of S that she is trailing behind her, regardless of whether it is reasonably possible for P to do so or not.  Right of way rules are absolute rules:  they are not subject to conditions.
 
P is also obliged to avoid contact with S if reasonably possible (rule 14).
 
In this scenario as fully explained in Case 77, Nothing P did or failed to do, or can do or not do will cause S to 'need to take avoiding action' so P is not failing to keep clear and P does not break rule 10.
 
The trailing sheet or whatever, not being readily visible to P, it is not reasonably possible for P to avoid contact with it and P does not break rule 14.
 
Originally posted by RS400atC

I accept that if you don't see the line until it's too late, it's not possible.
But supposing S is not a dinghy but some retro cruiser-racer towing a walker log...

Or my mate Roger who caught a few mackeral while winning a race back from the IoW.....
In both those cases it's being done deliberately and the principles discussed above and in Case 77 can be applied.
 
But I'm pretty sure trailing a fishing line is like flying an ensign:  a certain signal that a boat is not racing <g>.
Originally posted by RS400atC

I thought that deliberately breaking any rule to gain an advantage broke Rule 2?
What else is the established principle of sportsmanship if it is not to attempt to play within the rules?
That's what a boat protesting under rule 2 needs to convince the protest committee.
 


Edited by Brass - 08 Jun 13 at 2:26am
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 13 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Brass

......
 
By deliberately trailing the sheet, then all my Case 77 worries about whether S 'caused' the contact go away:  S deliberately trailing the sheet caused the contact:  it was reasonably possible for S, by not deliberately trailing the sheet to have avoided contact.  S broke rule 14, but as previously discussed, there being no damage or injury (and except in the rather unlikely event of the sheet snagging on S and drawing the boats together, damage being unlikely) S shall be exonerated in accordance with rule 14( b ).
 
S, however, deliberately broke a rule with the intention of gaining an advantage.
 
Well, we can search the RRS and the Case Book and we will not discover any general rule or interpretation that says anything special about deliberately breaking a rule.
 
.....


What rule has S broken by trailing a sheet exactly?
Is it that different from trailing the lazy twiller?
If S chooses to trail a warp, is P not obliged to keep clear of it, to the limit that this is possible?
I accept that if you don't see the line until it's too late, it's not possible.
But supposing S is not a dinghy but some retro cruiser-racer towing a walker log...

Or my mate Roger who caught a few mackeral while winning a race back from the IoW.....


I thought that deliberately breaking any rule to gain an advantage broke Rule 2?
What else is the established principle of sportsmanship if it is not to attempt to play within the rules?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 13 at 5:55pm
If the port boat hailed the starboard boat to pull his sheet aboard, would starboard be obliged to do so?

I have in the past trailed a kite halyard on a keelboat to work the twists out of it, during a race. I have also done the same with a main halyard when coming ashore on a beach with waves.
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