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Are too many dinghies too short?

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MerlinMags View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are too many dinghies too short?
    Posted: 13 Mar 13 at 11:52am
If anyone is truly interested, I can make a graph of how many classes appear in each length bracket, and compare today's list against that of 1960. I'd need help filling in the hull lengths our database is missing though.
 
I did something similar a while back, graphing length against speed, and then chuckling over the extreme outlying points:
 
Yes, I am a bit of a nerd for this stuff. But it never feels like it becasue my brother has a PhD in stats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 7:47pm
The X1 is long and slim, and very, very light. Seems it carries weight well, too.

I keep on doodling 15' double ended singlehanders, where you get the long W/L length, but keep the weight out of the ends. Of course, the Int Canoe has been doing this successfully at 17' for eons!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 6:19pm
Adding length cheaply would add weight.
But lots of boats could be built longer without weighing any more, with perhaps modest use of better material?
A longer boat will put more stress on the hull when one end is out of the water or whatever.
Modern foam sandwich hulls probably have plenty of stiffness to cope, where a single skin grp or ply hull might not.
Isn't a 59er quite long?
Does that suggest making a long boat is not always the way to go?
I suppose I'm biased toward longer boats having spent some time sailing yachts from A to B, length is good in that regime.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Mike Arnold's Alto has ticked a lot of the right boxes for a versatile 16ft+ two man dinghy. By how much has the Icon stretched it's 14ft lineage?

Yes, as I started reading this thread I was thinking of how the Alto has really caught on at WSC with people who are too big for 400's and 800's.

The scow/tunnel-hulled Intl Moth was another boat screaming out for more length.  I'd love a 15 foot version.

Jack Sparrow has listed reasons for keeping boats short; individuals may or not consider each of those to be an important consideration.  One of his reasons I'd maybe question (while acknowledging that he should, as a builder haver the answer) is that length adds significantly to the weight.  I'd have thought that once you had the structure in place to take the rig and centreboard loads, you could tack on extra length for relatively little extra weight - how much does a section of hull at bow or stern weigh? Not much so far as I can see.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 3:08pm
as far as i am concerned, as a british moth sailor, no boat needs to be longer than 11 feet!!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

( and we have some large boned people in the class Wink)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 11:43am
I always think Supernova goes well because of its length. It has the mast well back and a long fine entry. It also suits a variation of weight. Not that much canvas either.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 11:17am
As a comparison, it seems that British dinghies may have less LOA variation, if we look at the popular classes. There's none of the very popular 17-19' 3-person classes that one sees in the USA or Australia, for example, in the form of Lightnings, Thistles, Flying Scots, Sharpies and 16 Foot Skiffs*. As I understand it this is partly because the UK traditionally had smaller cars and garages (which is something Jack Holt noted) and perhaps because you often sail on smaller waterways. This was noted by people like COnrad Gulcher and Westell many years ago when they created the 505 and FD as a blend of long Euro boats and shorter British boats.

On the other hand, the Yanks also have a fondless for bizarrely small boats in the form of adults sailing 8' El Toros and Sabot and even smaller Frosties, whereas down here we may have a disproportionate number of adults sailing Mirrors, 125s and Herons and other 11-12' two-handers. 

It was noticeable in the women's skiff thread that the Brits seemed to place a higher value on a boat being short and sensitive than sailors from other areas may. It's also noticeable (from personal experience and the writings of many experts) that being highly sensitive was seen as an inherent virtue whereas from an outsider's perspective, it's nothing more than a perfectly understandable national quirk. Smile

D'oh, well a 16 is 16 feet LOA but if one takes into consideration rig size etc it's much bigger than a Fireball or similar, and it is a three-handers. You get the drift!


Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Mar 13 at 11:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 13 at 8:52pm
By how much has the Icon stretched it's 14ft lineage?

.... well to about 14' 10" in old money with a very near vertical bow as you ask.  It is a good compromise and was needed to inject a bit more weight carrying capability into the hull compared to the NS 14 'pre-cursers' (so both longer/wider) .. which makes it about the same length as a Tasar in fact.   It certainly keeps the Icon moving better in lighter stuff  as well as in proper wind.

We reckon the range of ideal crew weight to be 140-175kg but that those a few kg either side of this range should stiill find things competitive.

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 11 Mar 13 at 8:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 13 at 8:37pm

Yes, too many boats are too short.

More and more folks are taller than 6 feet, so they are on the "heavy" side of the spectrum, no matter how fit/skinny/... they are.

For example too few double handers can carry two tall guys, who have no chance to get their combined crew weight below 160 kgs, and rather will weigh in at 180 kgs, comfortably.

At least I am very happy that the RS800 is 16' as opposed to the usual 14', I do not need any extensions to stick out at the front and back just to make up for a lack in hull length :-)

And a 505 would not be what it is at 14', too...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 13 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by MerlinMags


Originally posted by rb_stretch


given the population as a whole is getting bigger and heavier

The bigger people, these days, are the sort of people who don't do sports! I wonder if sailors on average have got lighter and fitter over the years?
 
My view: 14ft is perfection. Why would you need a boat of any other length? Although with more foiling classes, the length of the hull might become irrelevant.


I'd say we're bigger on average, 'average' being of adult active participants paying with their own cash that is.

I have an old 1980s Douglas Gill spray suit - off ebay for a comedy retro sailing suit one day. size XL which normally fit in 21stC Gill- but it's way too tight and short in both arm and leg. I will have to lose weight and have leg length reduction surgery to realise the comic genius of this acquisition...
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