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Rule 18 for assymetrics gybing |
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 Topic: Rule 18 for assymetrics gybingPosted: 15 Sep 09 at 11:53am |
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Have the guys who wrote the rulebook ever sailed assymetrics? Take an F-18 cat on port reach with kite up sailing to a leeward mark which is straight downwind. Another catamaran follows the F-18 as it approaches a straight line of lasers e.g. an obstruction. The F-18 calls for water to gybe out of the way. The catamaran following says don't gybe in my water. The F-18 gets the kite down, heads up into wind and tacks to avoid the obstruction. The following catamaran gets in front. The matter is taken to a protest. The Protest committe find that since no contact occured there is no case to answer, even though the F-18 loses places in the race. What should be the outcome? |
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asterix
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Joined: 01 Aug 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 621 |
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 12:26pm |
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interesting, but you need to tell us some more info: what tack were the lasers on? were the lasers racing? and why can they be considered an obstruction? was the second F18 clear astern or was there an overlap between you and him? also, what rule(s) do you think was broken?
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 12:30pm |
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what tack were the lasers on? Starboard but the point is that it is a continuos obstruction were the lasers racing? and why can they be considered an obstruction? as above was the second F18 clear astern or was there an overlap between you and him? clear astern no overlap. also, what rule(s) do you think was broken? I know, but the RYA/IYRU judge who did the protest obviously did not. |
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 12:57pm |
Yes another boat can be considered an obstruction (especially if you do not have right of way over it). If (as I think the description is trying give) there is no 'room' for the cat in question to sail through them without infringing any rules and they must keep clear then they are entitled to 'room'. I believe in this situation they would be classes as a continuing obstruction at which point there does not necessarily have to be an overlap. As for the PC saying they cannot do anything because there was no contact they should be reminded that contact should be avoided wherever possible... We could do with a diagram or the info requested by asterix to gain a clearer picture, i have assumed an awful lot here! |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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asterix
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 1:03pm |
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OK and I'll probably get shot at, but I'm only trying first to understand, and then second to help. RRS 2009-2012 state "A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction." were you in the 3 length zone? is that why you think R18 applied? Edited by asterix |
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jeffers
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 2:18pm |
Ok I stand corrected on the continuing bit but I believe they are still classed as at least an obstruction otherwise on a beat to windward with 2 boats overlapped on port and a boat crossing on starboard the WW port boat would not be able to call for room to duck the stb boat transom..... EDIT: Might be worth an appeal to the RYA on this to get it clarified. I think there is a time limit of 14 days from the hearing to get this in to them though. Edited by jeffers |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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asterix
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 2:37pm |
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Hi Jeffers I agree with you that boats can be obstructions, just not continuing ones. And you are right about sailing upwind when Rule 20 can apply But in this case (if I understand it correctly - and I may not through lack of info.), I can't see that any of Rules 18, 19 or 20 apply. A |
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 3:26pm |
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Start again. Cat sailing on port with kite-up on a leg of the course which is dead down wind. The assymetric means you sail zig-zags downwind. You have another cat immediately behind not overlapped. You both approach the shore on port. The first cat gybes to avoid running aground after calling for water. The following cat shouts back that you are not to 'gybe in their water'. You have three options (i) to run aground (ii) to try and gybe and hope the following cat will not impede you and (iii) to lower your kite and tack round ( a 360 degree course change that inevitably lets the other cat overtake.
Please explain what part of rule 18 either applies or not, or as seems to be the case, that it is not clearly covered in the rules. |
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asterix
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 4:50pm |
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OK, listen I sail an assymetric (although not a cat), often in mixed fleets (with lasers and others symetrics who go straight down) so I do understand some of the problems of getting down wind. So back to the situation with the shore - relevant extracts from RRS are: R19.1 - at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does notR19.2 (b) - When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.R19.2 (c) - While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.-------------- So I think that in this case the first cat can gybe, and second cat has to keep clear. Neither of you need to hail. Don't know what others think?
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jeffers
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Posted: 15 Sep 09 at 5:03pm |
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Sounds like the cat behind was clear astern to me and was required to keep clear. The was a rule in the previous edition of the rules that stated a boat cannot sail below her proper course unless she immediately gybes (that is about the closest I can get to anything). This is no longer there though so the boat that was clear ahead is fine. The boat behind might need to brush up on the rules! Given the additional information the PC were right, there was no case to answer. The boat in front should be confident of the rules, if the boat behind disagrees then have another hearing next time it happens! |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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