Another keel breaks... |
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Iain C ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113 |
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So Hugo Boss is out of the 5 Oceans. I'm a development dinghy sailor so all for pushing the boundaries of design, but how many more of these canting keels are going to break before the designers get it right? Will it take a few fatalities to get them banned? Or does it need some kind of extreme test (like the capsize test) involving canting the keel on each boat X times with a T ton weight on the end? Discuss... |
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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
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Prince Buster ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 15 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
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This is very true and I was just having the same conversation with my dad. But I am against banning them as sailing always needs to modify and develop and canting keels are one of the most groundbreaking innovations on boats in the last few years. However, I do think that they need far more thorough testing and if they are to be used there needs to be strenuous testing and regulations to make sure they are fail safe. They will not be banned and they will continue to be widely used purely for the fact that, from a sailor's point of view, the benefits outweigh the risks. Every sailor wants to win a big race and they will always have the "it will never be me" attitude so the only option is to develop the technology further and make it safer.
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international moth - "what what?"
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CurlyBen ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Have to say I don't really understand why they are regularly failing, I could understand one or two - whether due to miscalculations or unforseen circumstances, or jsut bad luck - but the regularity with which they fail is pretty worrying. Are they pushing so hard for performance that they're not allowing a great enough safety factor? I understand the desire for less weight on the boat but you're never going to win a race when the keel drops off halfway round the course...
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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC |
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49erGBR735HSC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1991 |
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A case for the canting keel would be that they reduce the stability of an upturned boat making them easier to right from full inversion. With a conventional keel, you are dependant on the force of a wave to roll the boat back over from total inversion. If you consider Isabelle Autissier's inversion on Open 60 "PRB" with a conventional keel, the upturned stability of PRB was too much for the force of a wave alone to right the boat. With the beemier boats like the VO70s, Open 60s, etc, the canting keels provide a bias of force when the boats do go fully inverted and aid the righting of the boat. Consider a dinghy sailor hanging onto a centreboard to right an inverted boat, and you have the same effect a canting keel provides. Reckon canting keels are a step forward from a safety point of view aswell as a performance point of view, and feel that most offshore racers would support that point of view. The failings are from a mechanical point of view, but on the whole, canting keels seem a step in the right direction.
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CurlyBen ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Also, by providing more righting moment the canting keel will reduce the liklihood of a capsize, and even if the keel is hanging freely it will fall to one side after capsize and so help to right the boat. However, I just can't comprehend why the designers can't get the mechanisms to hold together. I haven't looked deeply at the incidents but it doesn't even sound to be in unusual conditions, certainly well within what the boats should be expected to endure.
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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC |
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WildWood ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Nov 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 136 |
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Re Alex Thomson / Hugo Boss, good news that he is safe onboard Ecover. Anyone know what will happen to Hugo Boss now? Is it just left to drift in the southern ocean until it breaks up and sinks? The report didn't seem to suggest the keel damage was causing her to take on water. Would they try and salvage the boat? Anyway, what a shame. Pretty crappy thing to happen. |
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hurricane ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1047 |
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bad news is ecovers mast has just snapped....
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lifes to short to sail slow boats!
RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007 |
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tgruitt ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 02 Dec 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2479 |
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at least there are two people on board to set up the jury rig.
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Needs to sail more...
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Iain C ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113 |
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Dennis I really have to disagree that canting keels are a step forward from a safety point of view! Just look at the numbers of high profile failures, Ericsson, Boss, Nicorette, the list goes on and on. How on earth no sailor or rescuer has been killed yet I have no idea. It just seems to an enormous achilles' heel of modern designs, there is no other failure that causes as much of an issue. Granted they do make an inversion less dangerous, but I really would not fancy my chances of canting the keel in an upside down boat in the dark. The issue here is to do more with the shape of stuff like an Open 60...however not sure on this but haven't the stability rules been tightened up anyway? |
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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
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49erGBR735HSC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1991 |
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I've been researching a lot about canting keels, and although they have had their failings, they do have the support from sailors such as Mike Golding, and it wasn't my own personal opinion, although I do agree with it, that canting keels are tending to make off-shore racing more safe on the whole. The tightening of the offshore rules for Open 60s has been aided through canting keels because it has allowed boats which would be incapable of self-righting with conventional keels, to right. There are two routes which the designs seem to be going down as I'm percieving it now, "beemier" boats with more upright stability and canting keels, which perform higher, or narrower boats with the ability to self-right but less sailing stability. It's a bit of a trade off between the two and it's really down to the sailor's personal decision on which design they choose, and at the present moment, the canting keel boats seem to have preference. My point initially was that if they can get the mechanics behind the canting keels right, it makes the sport slightly more safer due to the fact that wider designs of boats can be sailed, with the likely-hood of capsize reduced slightly and if need be, the canting keel can aid righting in the worst case scenario. From a general point of view, canting keels may aid the sport as a whole due to the fact that it's quite scary how many cruisers, racer/cruisers, etc have high inversion stability, in such they won't self right. If the cutting edge of the sport can pioneer and refine canting keels to the point there are no general failings, in years to come, they may filter down into other classes and lessen the ammount of supposedly "safe" boats which can't self-right. |
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