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How windy is too windy

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ClubRacer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 7:37pm
I was recently at a open meeting in which the PRO abandoned sailing on the sea due to safety reasons. It was a 12 knot breeze with it forecast to increase to 20. Due to the location of the event launching and recovery was no issue so I'm failing to understand where the safety issue is?

There was another instance of this from the same race team at another event, one I wasn't included in but heard a lot of complaining and confusion about the decision.

Now in my honest opinion 20 knot forecast with no shore dump or other hazards doesn't constitute dangerous unless there isn't adequate safety cover from the host club. Which if this was the case then why is this club hosting a serious event that they can't staff properly.

Are PRO's ruining perfectly good sailing on the off chance they could be liable over any instances occuring regardless if safety cover was adequate? If so surely the competitors are the ones who vote with their feet when they go onto the water and accept the consequences of their own actions


If we had 20 knots on a normal club Sunday off the beach I would think twice about going out as there isn't really anything to gain and we all have to work the next day. The fact that we've paid and done a lot of travelling to be there and getting onto the water is no issue it should be a no brainier to run or at least get boats to the starting area to assess the conditions.

Is this something that will only get worse? With less and less people travelling to events who would risk the 10+ hours spent prep work to get to and from the event for what could be no sailing at all because the forecast says it might be windy 
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 7:51pm
My club used to have a rule that if their are whitecaps no organised sailing, you could go out at your own risk and have a blast, but that's it, main issue is our jetty is 90% a lee shore.
New Commodore will allow organised sailing if people want it, regardless of conditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 8:07pm
Depends on the class and relative ability of the sailors. As we've seen recently something like a Finn can race in damn near anything, but more fragile or hyper high performance classes and those of a more sedate demographic would sensibly stop earlier
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 8:18pm
People set out to race in these conditions, OOD then sounded the re-call when every boat went over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdfa9RHFJvw

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 8:33pm
This is when it gets a bit sketchy..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 7:47am
Looks a bit like a Contender open at Eastbourne some years ago, where I was on the beach.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 9:38am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

(is not) dangerous unless there isn't adequate safety cover from the host club. Which if this was the case then why is this club hosting a serious event that they can't staff properly.

Are PRO's ruining perfectly good sailing on the off chance they could be liable over any instances occuring regardless if safety cover was adequate? If so surely the competitors are the ones who vote with their feet when they go onto the water and accept the consequences of their own actions

Is this something that will only get worse? 
There are some really interesting points here. To take them in order:

1). Good question. Do we just keep on assuming that clubs will always have enough trained and experienced PRO's, Safety Crews, and support personnel to run an event ?    I've ran many events for my club over a long period of time, but recently I've decided to no longer do this as I no longer have confidence in the ability of my club to provide (volunteer) crews of an appropriate standard and I refuse to be associated with a substandard and/or unsafe event. Lots of reasons why the club has got to this and I suspect we're not alone, but basically I think newbs want to come into the sport and play when they feel like it and doing duties doesn't map onto modern life. Which is fine, but it sort of means the resourcing model we've had at most of our clubs is dying on its feet. 

2). Health and safety might get a bad press by some on this forum, but the legal reality that many clubs/race committees/general committees have had explained to then is that a club cannot pass all risk/liability etc back to competitors just by stating that competitors sail at their own risk.  If anyone doesn't believe this then speak to RYA legal, they are very clear on this matter.

3). Yes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 10:20am
In an ideal world I'd prefer the race officer to think about the fairness of the racing and the competitors to make decisions for their own personal safety. After-all, you should best know your ability and you should best know your risk aversion, so you as a competitor is best placed to make the call on whether you go racing or not. 

If the wind is so light it becomes impossible to get the boats around the course and racing is a lottery, then can the racing. If it's so windy that the same is true, then can the racing. 

In a work place, if I am employing someone to do a job, then I should ensure they are able to do it safely. They are doing it for me, therefore I have duty of care. 

On the other hand, a RO is setting a course and running a start and finish. It makes no difference to the RO whether anyone races or not. The RO has nothing to gain by people racing. The people racing aren't doing it for him. My personal opinion is that duty of care should not extend to situations like this. It leaves the people least informed about the specific risks in the position of making safety decisions. Obviously legal people love it, because it creates huge amount of work!

The exception I make is children. When I was coaching, and parents leave their kids in my care, I understand that they may not have yet developed the awareness to judge risk for themselves, and therefore I would take a precautionary approach. Ideally, parents should be around to make that decision for their kids... but often that's not the case and duty of care is transferred to the organiser. 


Edited by mozzy - 31 Aug 18 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 10:43am
A couple of points.
As well as a duty of care to children, there is a duty of care to beginners. How far up the experience ladder this extends might be debated.
Also, people are paying their subs and entry fees to get fair racing.
Is it fair to the bulk of the members if series can only be won by people who are willing to go out and break their boats in a gale?
I would say what you need is a clear policy which fits in with the ethos of the club or class. Then people can opt to join a club or class which suits them.
A lot of classes have guidance in their rules regarding wind strength.

The issue cuts both ways. Look at the numbers of certain classes entering but not racing in the big PY races.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

As well as a duty of care to children, there is a duty of care to beginners. How far up the experience ladder this extends might be debated.
I don't think it extends at all to racing.  A learn to sail course should cover the dangers. Attendees are paying to be educated about the sport and that will include the dangers. I'd say the instructors have a duty to provide that service. 

Originally posted by RS400atC

Also, people are paying their subs and entry fees to get fair racing.
Is it fair to the bulk of the members if series can only be won by people who are willing to go out and break their boats in a gale?
I would say what you need is a clear policy which fits in with the ethos of the club or class. Then people can opt to join a club or class which suits them.
A lot of classes have guidance in their rules regarding wind strength.
This is where I think the race officer should be making the decision. Are these boat going to racing around the course? Or is it just going to become about kit failure and who's unlucky enough to get knocked down the most. It's still a somewhat subjective decision, but one based upon the fairness of the sailing. The competitors can make a call about their personal safety. 


Edited by mozzy - 31 Aug 18 at 1:56pm
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