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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Those laws of physics you lot love to..
    Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:17pm
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Never stop questioning them

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 12:34pm
What he's on about is nothing to do with the laws of physics. I suspect its just an over-simplification - or lie-to-children - that somehow resonated with people and became over egged.

I suppose the classic example is "longer boats are faster than shorter ones", which is a classic law of physics thing. And those laws of physics are still true, but they need to be qualified with "provided its a pure displacement craft operating at speeds where wave making drag is more important than other forms of drag".

On the other hand its always good to question "what-everybody-knows" and try and establish the real truth. Look at the old "everyone wants fleet racing" convention for an excellent recent example.



Edited by JimC - 27 Sep 17 at 12:49pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 5:43pm
This was discussed at some length on CVRDA a couple of years ago, I seem to remember this is same scientist who with one of his colleagues de-bunked Bernoulli, then later in their paper admitted their theory relied on parts of Bernoulli's theory to work.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 5:53pm
It has always been blatantly obvious that the air particles don't have to reach the back together, and I've never understood why it gets taught that way. Of course, knowing something must be nonsense, and knowing WHY it is are 2 very different things. I'll leave the latter to people in smoke filled labs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 8:11pm
Check out the original paper.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0031-9120/38/6/001/pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:05pm
It's one of those badly taught subjects, I don't think anyone who has even the slightest knowledge in physics would have thought that the air molecules have to reach the trailing edge at the same time.

Another interesting boat related one is the common misconception that for a boat to be "stable" the centre of gravity has to be below the centre of buoyancy. I was quite shocked at how few people understood this during my naval architecture degree.... moral of the story, never trust an honours degree naval architect, some may never have even been on a boat. This became very clear when one of the people on my course designed a 30 foot cruising yacht as part of a final year project that had no keel, when questioned they asked "What's a keel?". Shocking right? They are now a highly "qualified" naval architect working in the defence industry, go figure!

It's always frustrated me that as you progress further and further through education you quickly realise that most of the things that you were taught at the previous stage of your education were basically lies, or rather deliberately wrong to make the core understanding easier to grasp. Take for example the idea of atoms, as a child you are taught that they are the smallest things that exist. Then you reach gcse level and you get taught about protons, neutrons and electrons. Then you learn that electrons are grouped in rings of 2,8,8 etc... oh no, of course when you get to a-level its not that simple, in fact that's barely even true either. I never got further than that in core science but I suspect what I was taught at a-level chemistry/physics is also mostly gibberish. 

When it comes to aerofoils/wings its simply a case of "steering" the air and harvesting the resultant force of this change in direction. This can be achieved with a flat sheet (paper aeroplane), a curved sheet (sails) or a foil with thickness (aeroplane wing). The intricacy comes from the properties required from the lift, whether it be stability, ultimate low drag etc. Then it is a case of designing or choosing a section that gives the right balance of stability, lift for a given range of angle of attack, and the minimum drag during these conditions. That's where the science (art) comes in!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 17 at 10:32pm
As said, the speed of flow was a simple way to explain the situation to school kids, but the more detailed analysis termed "circulation theory" had been around for a lot longer than the article suggests.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 9:27am
The article bangs on about air flowing over the wing and under it, but in general, the wing is moving through relatively still air.
The air under the wing must 'flow under' the wing at sufficient speed such that the wing is not pushing an ever-increasing wodge of air in front of it.
If it is slowing locally, it must be getting denser as the air molecules are conserved.
Bernoulli's theorem is not wrong, it's just not the whole story.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cameron Winton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 2:12pm
I cant watch the video but I think his comment about sails is utter crap.
The video appears to show an ideal aerofoil at a high incidence of attack. This can mean that laminar airflow has been lost and separation has occurred. This creates turbulence with low mean speed and increases the differential pressure across the aerofoil. The article is very poorly written.
In aerodynamics. It has been understood for 100 years that we cannot model directly the behaviour of an aerofoil. The whole "two molecules of air" explanation is about conservation of mass, a fundamental basis for Bernoulli's equation. It still works as an explanation in some circumstances, especially in 2 dimensions (The classic cross section of an aerofoil with streamlines.)It also assumes an ideal fluid which air is not (eg it is compressible)
Once in 3-d, the maths becomes utterly horrible and relies on the empirical (The Navier Stokes equations). I cant remember the relationship between Navier Stokes and Circulation but it is the accepted conceptual explanation but cannot be directly proven by maths.
A sail is a very non ideal aerofoil operating very much in 3-D.

Edited by Cameron Winton - 28 Sep 17 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 17 at 3:23pm
Why would a naval architect need to know about keels on yachts? As I write this I'm sat on a semi-submersible flotel beside a big triangular gas platform on legs. Both work well, both have 'hulls' and none of them have keels, other than perhaps of the structural type and all designed with input from naval architects. Indeed I know one who designs pipelines that get towed out half way between the surface and the sea bed. Buoyancy calcs are important but again nothing to do with keels again.
Most naval architects probably do industrial stuff and I guess you don't need to be able to sail to do most of that
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