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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finn race format
    Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 12:06pm
Cribbed from that 'other' sailing forum frequented by colonial cousins (amongst others...)

"The Finn class will be trialing a new race format at the Palma regatta starting in 2 weeks. It looks like this

The format in Palma will enable all sailors to sail a minimum of five days, while keeping the last day for the Final.

  • Round 1 – Opening Series: A series of nine fleet races will be held from Monday to Thursday in one group. The top two boats in the series will proceed directly to the Final while the next three boats will proceed to Round 3 - The Semi-Final. 
  • Round 2 - Semi-Final-Qualifier: The rest of the fleet (i.e. everyone except the top 5) will sail the Semi-Final-Qualifier on Friday, for a second and final chance to qualify for the Semi-Final. The top five boats after this tenth series race will proceed to the Semi–Final based on overall series ranking. 
  • Round 3 - Semi-Final: The Semi-Final, with eight boats (three from Round 1 and five from Round 2) will be sailed on Friday (if time) or else on Saturday. All boats will start on zero points. The top three across the line will proceed to the Final. 
  • Final: The Final will be sailed on Saturday with five boats (two from Round 1, three from Round 3). All boats will start on zero points. The podium will be decided by the finishing order.

(Thanks to http://www.yachtsand...test-new-format for details)

I personally find this totally crazy and makes me less and less interested in Olympic sailing. I can think of some situations that would make a mockery of this.

1. Somebody wins every one of the 9 fleet races and then doesn't win a medal.

2. Somebody comes last in each of the 9 fleet races, finishes 5th in the semi-final qualifier, 3rd in the semi final and wins Gold in the final.

3 Modification of above, but instead of last in 9 races, DNF's in 9 races. As it is the Finn, imagine if somebody like Ben Ainslie arrived at a regatta ill, started each of the 9 races and then headed back to bed!

To me, ignoring what has gone on in 9 out of maximum of 11 races is crazy. The fixation with making sailing more media/TV friendly is pushing more and more ridiculous formats. Surely enough is enough. On this basis, why not simply have one single race, winner takes all because as a true test for our sport that's almost as valid as what is being proposed.  :angry:"

Discuss...
Nick
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 12:31pm
Sailing is more akin to Heptathlon, Modern Pentathlon and Decathlon. Having a tournament style event just wont work for sailing. It is and has always been about being strong across a range of days/conditions/races (similar to the athletics events mentioned above). Sure if you win all the races then you will win overall but consistency is what helps. This new format will put me off watching Olympic sailing, but then again I am a sailor and not a member of the wider public.
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Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Noah

  • Round 2 - Semi-Final-Qualifier: The rest of the fleet (i.e. everyone except the top 5) will sail the Semi-Final-Qualifier on Friday, for a second and final chance to qualify for the Semi-Final. The top five boats after this tenth series race will proceed to the Semi–Final based on overall series ranking. 

2. Somebody comes last in each of the 9 fleet races, finishes 5th in the semi-final qualifier, 3rd in the semi final and wins Gold in the final.



Worth pointing out that Point 2 above is incorrect - if someone comes last in each of the 9 fleet races they won't be able to progress by winning the semifinal qualifier, as the five boats going forward at this stage do so based on overall series ranking (see Round 2 bullet point above).

There are still some other issues that are valid, but it's not quite as extreme as the post from SA suggests.
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:12pm
Been through all this discussion with a similar format proposal for RS:X.

It will change the way people sail in the fleet races; the good guys will take less risks as they only need to be there or thereabouts. The lower fleet guys will really bang corners, a couple of lucky guesses could get them into the knockout rounds - by then it might be 'their conditions'.

A lot of effort to make it slightly more understandable for people that aren't really interested in sailing, whilst spoiling it for the people that actually sail.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:22pm
I think it's a good idea and reflects real world sailing more and more.... hardly anyone cares for the series results in a club, it all comes down to individual races- with maybe one or two key club races that carry more gravitas than the rest. 

 It might as well be the same for the top tier of the sport too.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:43pm
I think there are flaws and it is unnecessarily complicated, but I have no problem with a winner takes all final race. I don't hold with the line of thought that you need a long series to find the best sailors.
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 2:50pm
Disagree. You often see outliers popping up and winning the occasional race through getting lucky with a big shift. Nobody wins a series through luck.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

I think it's a good idea and reflects real world sailing more and more.... hardly anyone cares for the series results in a club, it all comes down to individual races- with maybe one or two key club races that carry more gravitas than the rest. 

 It might as well be the same for the top tier of the sport too.

Nobody cares about the series, until mysteriously it all changes at the annual prizegiving?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by A2Z

I think there are flaws and it is unnecessarily complicated, but I have no problem with a winner takes all final race. I don't hold with the line of thought that you need a long series to find the best sailors.


Why bother with the rest of the regatta?
Just pick 8 boats from the rankings?
How many times would the eventual winner miss out on this basis?


OTOH, I can see some merit in the top few guys racing without the distraction of a big fleet.
And in avoiding the situation where the winner doesn't need to sail the last day.

TBH what the pro's in the Finns get up to is not something that worries me over much, I wouldn't even worry too much if a regatta I entered was on this format. But I wouldn't want it to become general.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 17 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by turnturtle

I think it's a good idea and reflects real world sailing more and more.... hardly anyone cares for the series results in a club, it all comes down to individual races- with maybe one or two key club races that carry more gravitas than the rest. 

 It might as well be the same for the top tier of the sport too.

Nobody cares about the series, until mysteriously it all changes at the annual prizegiving?

 I guess those that actually go to a prize giving might care, but if say 50% of series entrants were bothered about anything other than a single race in isolation, please explain why there are so many DNCs in most club series result sheets? 

But your other post is spot on, it doesn't really concern me too much what happens at Olympic level Finn sailing.  


Edited by turnturtle - 17 Mar 17 at 4:24pm
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