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Minimum Width rudder can be built yet remain

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iGRF View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 5:13pm
..effective.

So following the gybing plate thread and foil drag etc, do we have any case history of very narrow high aspect rudders and the reduction in drag they bring versus their efficiency at turning the boat (although I constantly read you're not supposed to use them for that if you're doing it properly).

Having reshaped the main foil of this minisprint I am left with this chunk of an outside privy door nailed to a bit of wood that I'm minded to get medieval with since that is clearly its origin. I'm wondering just how savage I can be in reducing it's plan form.

Edited by iGRF - 02 Feb 16 at 5:14pm
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realnutter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote realnutter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 5:30pm
Class rules are open on the subject.... go down to a 3mm alloy sheet if you want to...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 5:31pm
about 10% of the chord

Edited by Jack Sparrow - 02 Feb 16 at 5:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 6:40pm
Rudders have been known to go down to 6% sections but you start to move into the area where exotic materials are needed. It really depends on the chord length of the rudder, a huge long chord length means that you can go down to lower %ages but you might not want a long chord length for other reasons, mainly drag and weight on the helm. I suspect an oppy rudder has less than 6% section but then it is basically square, so it is inefficient for other reasons. 

A vague rule is also that the thinner the rudder relative to its chord length the earlier it will stall as the angle of attack increases. Given a high chord length this is not necessarily a massive problem as the rudder will have enough of a barn door effect to overcome this, but in that mode it will have massive amounts of drag. 

In short, it depends what you want to achieve and what materials and plan form area you have to achieve it with.

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 7:04pm
Well logic says the less there is, the faster through the water we should go.

Reason also suggests any extra width should be at the bottom, so it still engages when the boat is up on its ear, so I'd thought of a narrow down shaft with maybe a wider section at the tip.

Edited by iGRF - 02 Feb 16 at 7:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 7:45pm
Most of the time, you don't need much rudder, but I seem to recall that MiniSails sometimes need a lot of steering downwind, as the boom is long and the hull is not keen to be under the rig?
The hull itself is fairly ambivalent about direction of travel, particularly if you succeed in keeping it flat.

I had one many, many years ago, I bought a new sail for it from Great Western Sails, about 10 minutes before the CA started allowing battens.
How about a dagger-box type rudder and pull it up a bit if you feel too much under control?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 7:55pm
Fatter sections tend to be preferred on rudders because they stall less easily. The choice of section too is relevant, usually something more forgiving than the rudder. I wouldn't change the area too much away from stock because of the rudder's role in balance and lateral resistance, but having said that the minisail may not have had optimally set up foils out of the box.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 8:20pm
The Minisail rudder can be very, very heavy off wind as the boat tries to broach if the balance is wrong. Too narrow a blade will simply let the boat spin out, I suspect. However, I've really not figured out what works best. The standard rudder is pretty poor, just a piece of ply.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 8:31pm
Form drag, due to the shape and thickness of the foil, will be no more than 5% of the total drag of the rudder. It's not worth going thin to reduce drag, and thin foils stall more aggressively.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 16 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by JimC

Fatter sections tend to be preferred on rudders because they stall less easily. The choice of section too is relevant, usually something more forgiving than the rudder. I wouldn't change the area too much away from stock because of the rudder's role in balance and lateral resistance, but having said that the minisail may not have had optimally set up foils out of the box.

IIRC the original MS sails were quite horrible by the time they were a year or 6 old, full, stretchy, often funny colours...
I'd hazard that optimisation of the rudder was somewhat limited.
Also, if the rudder was very big/deep, it would probably have bent the stock all over the place, as this was ludicrously shallow to suit the transom?

Things may have changed over the years, I must have sold mine in the early 80's (?) and it was a bargain boat then, bought to keep sailing while mending something else...
It is one of the few boats I've had that I can't recall the sail number. It was GRP with a wooden, clamp-on sliding seat.
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