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A right to protest (PY Content avoid if bored)

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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A right to protest (PY Content avoid if bored)
    Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:05pm
Further to the various discussions, it occurs to me it ought to be possible to protest a yardstick designation if it was regarded as to favourable, wether that be in Transients example of his L2k or my pet moan at the alleged 'Fire' showing up and racing effectively a Blaze with a small rig in very strong winds off 1071, so other than going f**k it, I'll just stay at home in future and do my thing locally, what if any machinations are there open to us alleged victims, in Racing Rules? Probably none I guess, but something a new UKDRA should take on maybe, and puuuurrlease none of the adjust locally bollox, there's enough anecdotal evidence as to why that's never going to happen, so an alternative needs to be in place.

There really should be an association that exists to take care of, promotes and protects handicap racing from abuse and that includes abuse by the PYAG.


Edited by Woodburner - 15 Apr 15 at 3:11pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:17pm
Who do you protest? And will you also request redress for the class who's handicap is harsh? Maybe say "well, they should have beaten me, here's my 3rd place eggcup"?

Glad we have another PY thread going, and can I just add that this one has started out pretty silly, so no complaints if it gets worse?

What I think you should be looking at is the Moral situation. Should a boat enter a race if they know that their handicap gives them a better than average (for them) chance of winning? Even though the number is often out of their control? So, a 420 on a windy day; is it fair that they will thrash a British Moth on handicap? That British Moth, sailing in a force 1 on the river. Is it morally reprehensible for that boat to race against the 49er, knowing that he is almost bound to win?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:28pm
PY is far from perfect, it doesn't work for all boats/races/conditions.
Can you imagine the wrangling there would be if you could protest a PY?

There should be scope for CA's to ask the RYA for 'review' (on a published basis) however clubs should be adjusting the numbers to suit local conditions/water

With the Laser2 discussion, there seems to be a lack of maturity from the club, blindly following whatever the RYA says (except for the bit where it says you should be adjusting locally).

Big Handicap events should publish the PY's upfront so you can vote with your feet if you think your handicap (is actually a handicap ;-) ), though they may already do this (SailJuice???)

The only way around it would be to have a National Personal Handicapping system, though that would be full of problems/bandits.

No protests please, we are not the America Cup
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

Big Handicap events should publish the PY's upfront so you can vote with your feet if you think your handicap (is actually a handicap ;-) ), though they may already do this (SailJuice???)

corrrect - SJ do publish the GL numbers ahead of the event.  Don't like yours enough, don't turn up- simples.  

Don't like someone else's?  No problem... leave them to their (perceived) shallow victory.  It's not like anyone buys Y&Y to see their name in it anymore is it?   
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by JohnJack


With the Laser2 discussion, there seems to be a lack of maturity from the club, blindly following whatever the RYA says (except for the bit where it says you should be adjusting locally).





........I wasn't going to post on this thread, no offence WB, I was just going to do what it said on the tin (in brackets)

I must say something in my club Sailing Coms defence JohnJack. They are good folk doing a voluntary Job. Their decision (at the moment) is not to adjust locally, that's fully understandable from my perspective. There are other L2 sailors at my club who would probably object. There are other boats that some consider bandits on our water, adjust one and there would be pressure to adjust others. The electronic returns C/W custom made PY is considered as too personal by some (but would be my preference)........ Many clubs consider it  a can of worms not worth opening.

There's several small clubs along my part of south coast, every now and then there's an influx of members from the neighboring club: "what happened?" every one asks, "Oh, there's been a bust up at *** SC about something" .........mucking around with the PY could upset a lot of folk. 


....back on topic. Name a boat that hasn't been called a bandit at some stage or at some venue. The protest queue would stretch twice round the block.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 3:57pm
You protest the sailor, as you would any other protest.

You're deliberately sailing a boat with an unduly advantageous handicap in order to profit by it.

All merlins sailed by Pro Sailors, any one offs like the Fire that isn't really a proper boat.

Strikes me if you had such a rule, they wouldn't then have to go through all this savaging of new boats in order to protect themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 4:35pm
Sorry but this thread has be be the biggest load of bull ever.

About the only rule I can think of is 'fair sailing' where you feel they are deliverately sailing a given class to gain advantage.

Now I can see that working for rig swapping (Blaze, Fire Halo, Aero 9, 7 and 5, and Laser, Radial, 4.7) but not for anything else.

The bottom line is clubs should adjust. If your local club wont then go somewhere that does!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

, any one offs like the Fire that isn't really a proper boat.


Did you not get the memo? Having an opinion, even one daubed with irony and jest, makes you a troll... Allegedly
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 5:03pm
I do feel that all "not proper" boats without handicaps (so the Minisail, of course, as well as the Aero, Fire, D0 - basically any new boat, or any old boat where returns have ceased, or any boat which has developed faster than the system can keep up with (so Int Moths, for instance) should be disqualified without a hearing - no point in spending valuable drinking time on a protest, when it is obvious what the result will be, as everyone know the PY is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 15 at 5:40pm
I am avoiding as bored. However I am looking at a ewe from my kitchen window who is dirty black and white. She has two lambs, one white and one black, charming.

Going sailing now...pursuit on personal handicaps, no wind, wish me luck. I will update on sheep tomorrow.
tickel
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