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Is it a sport or a pastime, can it be both?

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    Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 8:27am
I know that this is a development forum and not a philosophical society but perhaps it is a relevant question.

Seems to me the biggest part of what we argue about on here revolves about it.

Such as.

Lasers are great, they are all the same, should never change and should never be questioned, doesn't matter that the spars are like alloy scaffold poles and they hurt to hike. It's sport cobber, no pain no gain, man up or get out.

Aeros, Zeros, M14s, R8.1s the more the better whatever floats your boat man. 

Updating classes to be cooler, cheaper, easier.

Niche classes, because I like it and I can.

So. How is sailing seen? A sporting endeavour where the equipment is secondary to the the Sailor, an absorbing technical pastime with a competitive edge or a tinkerers and potterers paradise?

I suppose it has to be everything but it seems to me that most of the argy bargy and frustration about the future and direction of sailing in our debates comes from not being able to decide which camp our particular niche and interest falls into.










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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodbotherer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 9:06am
Or is it a game we play?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 9:36am
Sport, mostly.

Once upon a time you could build a boat to class rules with the tools you had in your shed. The competition was fair because everyone started from the same point. Building your dinghy and optimizing it's design was all part of the sport with the on the water racing the climax of that  (very much like F1, which is a sport).

However, when people could no longer build the boats themselves which were competitive, it killed off that aspect. Merlins, GP14's N12's are all now dominated by one or two builders and unless you have an oven in your shed you're not going to be building a competitive one yourself. The competition suddenly became unfair, the quality of your boat wasn't decided by your own skill, but your ability to pay the asking price. 

The answer to this was SMOD's. People don't have time to build there own, so SMOD's allowed people to buy in to a class (cheaper than Merlin's, N12's etc) where the competition would be leveled once you were on the water (i.e. exact same equipment). Sure, it's more expensive than building your own, but require less time, and there wouldn't be pressure to buy the latest and greatest. This was the ethos the Laser and all SMODs to follow were based upon. Each took a design freeze of the latest equipment out there, and allowed people to compete fairly on the water... thus making it true sport.

Obviously, some people still do have the time, knowledge and equipment to build themselves, and there are examples of people building competitive boats (Clive Everest in the Cherub, the first foiling Moths etc.). 

Basically, if you've got a level playing field, and everyone is competing, it's sport. If people are buying success then you degrade it to competitive cruising.

The best example of this is the N12. The front of the fleet is dominated by P&B, one manufacture. The rest of the fleet can't compete. The top ten boats aren't the ones that are best at building and tinkering, or the best sailors (although no doubt some of them are very good), but they are the people who can afford a P&B boat with T-foil. To me, this isn't sport, and it's a great shame as there are some great people and sailors in that fleet tinkering and playing, who will never stand a chance.

America's cup, competition starts from the design of the boats = sport
Laser, competition starts on the water with identical boats = sport
Many semi / one design boats where you have to buy the latest kit = no so sporting

This is the main barrier to our sport I feel and why it is rightly seen as so elitist. Even the relatively cheap SMODs there is decent entry price. And one designs where one or two manufactures are dominating are even more elitist still.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 9:48am
Without getting too bogged-down in symbolic interactionism, I'd say that there's two ways to view it. 

Firstly look at from the outside- how society sees us.  The 'me' so to speak.  I think its pretty clear most people I've come across do not consider it much of a sport, certainly at the levels most here compete at.  The stereotypes of 'not spilling one's gin' when you just sit there sailing and the associated assumed affluence boat ownership brings are hard to shake off.  I think the AC publicity might have an effect of making sailing appear more sporting- but like F1, the affluence barrier then becomes even harder to shake.  Billionaires racing millions of dollars of catamarans around glamorous locations (Portsmouth graciously excluded) do not convey the same image as The Mirror dinghy and its red top benefactor, or the boy-done-good who walks onto the pitch in a three Lions shirt.  

When such extreme examples of the sport are the focal point of mass-media attention is probably not doing 'sailing' much good for participation in the long term; although I do accept that's a view from a bloke sat in a matured capitalist economy, not someone sat with huge aspirations in a rapidly developing country aiming for life's rich luxuries and consumer goods.  

Back here in Blighty, I think it goes without saying that Team GBR (and the RYA) do a wonderful job  'keeping it real', but they a fighting a broad social stereotype, loaded against them.  To most people the concept of boat ownership is completely alien- even if it's utterly possible to participate in sailing and run a boat for far less than a premier league season ticket.  

Whether we like it or not, perception is reality.... and a glaringly polarised debate about whether to try and focus on social (maybe even ethnic) inclusivity or alternatively, nurture the core with more modest ambitions around gender and age diversity, is fairly evident for anyone connected to promoting the sport- at local, national and even international level.  

Let's be blunt, your typical 1970's male dinghy sailor would probably have stood more chance of 'converting' his wife, children, grandchildren, colleagues, friends etc to the sailing club than he would leafleting a council estate or fly tipping a lamppost outside the mosque...  I don't really see what's changed, despite nearly 50 years of social mobility and racial integration.  

So for all the equipment changes we discuss here ad nauseam, the perception on the outside hasn't shifted.  If anything, I'd say it's probably got even more elitist and 'middle class' since the hey-day of homebuilt wooden boats.   But then that could be seen of reflective of society in general. What would Jack Holt say if he knew a new, competitive Solo dinghy was the price of a modest family car, or more directly, over half the annual average income?  That said, you could easily spend the same on very high end road bikes or a relatively basic family holiday.  And we have cheap finance now- something I don't think the industry side of the sport has really exploited to its full potential.  

That all being said, we are quick to defend ourselves- my season ticket comparison rolled out the keyboard without a second thought.  From the context of within the group, our group or sub-culture, I'd say we nigh on all consider it a sport.  Some of us, me included, even curtly call it a 'participation sport', compared to the countless other 'sporty folks' we know who define themselves by sports they watch on telly, or a bunch of young men in a team they happen to support with a passion I don't understand, and seemingly with some weird erotic undertone not dissimilar to 12 year old girls at a One Direction gig.     

This perception - how we see ourselves - is the 'I' for the Herbert Mead analogy.  Even going out for a burn, free-riding or cruising if your older, is a physical endeavour.  Work the winches short tacking a cruising yacht up a river will leave most breathless if they do it right.  Whilst we might acknowledge it is a not a competitive sport, it is a sport all the same- just like bike riding, rock climbing,  skiing & other winter sports etc.  

Most kitesurfer and windsurfers do not compete in organised races or competitions, however most would also consider it a sport- it's physical, the challenge comes from within- be that perfecting a freestyle move, planing out of a carve gybe or simply staying upright for a bit longer.  The sporting credential is almost never questioned, unless someone fancies trolling the equivalent forums and Facebook groups as this one.  Whether some on here like it or not, they are within the same family as sailing- and certainly from a sporting authority perspective, ISAF will control their sporting futures.  

So in summary, is it a sport or a pastime, or both?  It's both... it just depends on your perspective.  The questions really are, 'can we change that external perspective?' and more importantly, 'do we want to?'.  

 


Edited by turnturtle - 22 Jan 15 at 9:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 9:52am
Yes it's both. One of the few sports that is also a pastime as well. You can compete or you can just go for a sail round the coast or the broads or something. Nearly every other sport becomes competitive even in "friendlies" down the park. I think maybe cycling or swimming are the other ones. Even golf is competitive, your always trying to beat your normal score.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 10:27am
I think may have been Uffa Fox who said that in a sport you can get badly hurt or worse, but a pastime is safe from risk of injury. Its certainly that sort of era.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 10:30am
Comparison to cycling is always interesting to make (especially as I cycle a lot). Both sports had success at olympics building from Sydney through to London. However, cycling seems to have gained many more participants than sailing. I can't remember where but I read an article about the RYA talking to BC and trying to learn off them (bc membership has increased by some incredible number). 

On the competitive side, although you can spend pretty much as much as you'd like on a bike, you really don't have to. You could compete right up to professional level on kit easily less than £500, at the point kit becomes important it would be provided by your team anyway. Sure, there will always be people who are interested int eh technical side, and those with the finances to do so will spend a lot of money on it (I would too if I had more money), but it's not a essential for success in the same way it is for sailing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 10:31am
Originally posted by JimC

I think may have been Uffa Fox who said that in a sport you can get badly hurt or worse, but a pastime is safe from risk of injury. Its certainly that sort of era.

It's all fun and games until someone get's hurt... then it's a sport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 10:33am
Originally posted by mozzy

Comparison to cycling is always interesting to make (especially as I cycle a lot). Both sports had success at olympics building from Sydney through to London. However, cycling seems to have gained many more participants than sailing. I can't remember where but I read an article about the RYA talking to BC and trying to learn off them (bc membership has increased by some incredible number). 

On the competitive side, although you can spend pretty much as much as you'd like on a bike, you really don't have to. You could compete right up to professional level on kit easily less than £500, at the point kit becomes important it would be provided by your team anyway. Sure, there will always be people who are interested int eh technical side, and those with the finances to do so will spend a lot of money on it (I would too if I had more money), but it's not a essential for success in the same way it is for sailing. 

most kids learn to ride a bike, most kids do not learn to sail a dinghy.  

It's always going to be easier, cheaper and more accessible sport imho.  

As someone who took up snowboarding and windsurfing as an adult, I can assure you learning the motor skills that I take for granted in sailing, is really, really hard work and takes a lot of commitment and parked frustration.  Couple in the costs, and the constant temptation to improve through kit change, and I can fully understand why dinghy sailing is not the graceful retirement sport for anyone other than returners or the highly motivated.  


Edited by turnturtle - 22 Jan 15 at 10:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 15 at 10:38am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by mozzy

Comparison to cycling is always interesting to make (especially as I cycle a lot). Both sports had success at olympics building from Sydney through to London. However, cycling seems to have gained many more participants than sailing. I can't remember where but I read an article about the RYA talking to BC and trying to learn off them (bc membership has increased by some incredible number). 

On the competitive side, although you can spend pretty much as much as you'd like on a bike, you really don't have to. You could compete right up to professional level on kit easily less than £500, at the point kit becomes important it would be provided by your team anyway. Sure, there will always be people who are interested int eh technical side, and those with the finances to do so will spend a lot of money on it (I would too if I had more money), but it's not a essential for success in the same way it is for sailing. 

most kids learn to ride a bike, most kids do not learn to sail a dinghy.  

It's always going to be easier, cheaper and more accessible sport imho.  


Agreed, you can get a second hand bike that works for £20-£30 and just get on it and ride. Not many dinghies around that float for that kind of money. Then you need to find somewhere to sail it or pay registration fees to allow you to sail it on rivers/use slipways (certainly inland). Plus you need buoyancy aids at a minimum and you really need some kind of formal instruction.....
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