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Yuletide yardstick - is a change on the way

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NeilB-Phantom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilB-Phantom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Yuletide yardstick - is a change on the way
    Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 4:09am
The Yuletide yardsticks article was excellent, both informative and though provoking.  Here's the big question though is it a way of preparing the ground for a big change in the system?

Age related allowances, open/enclosed/tidal corrections?  

Would the PYAG be that "daring," do they need to be to reinvigorate the dinghy scene.  I would say they do, anything to encourage more participation and get those perfectly sound but out dated and hence off rating boats back out on the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 8:22am
Doubtless a well informed article from an individual with an impressive depth of experience and I certainly agree will the closing sentiments. Much as I appreciate all dedication and the work applied I have to ask the question. 

How relevant is it to the ,what say 75%, of the boats at the back of the Dinghy park that year on year hardly ever race.

All these machinations about PYs, I sometimes wonder who in the wider (sailing or otherwise) world really cares? Those that are already committed to this slightly esoteric activity are certainly very bothered but that is only "preaching to the converted". Phrases like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic come to mind.

I cannot see any revolution in the PY system making a significant difference to the percentage of participation by the back of the dinghy park boats.

To my mind the problem (for who thinks one exists) is a much wider socio economic one rather than an inward looking technical issue.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 9:36am
Originally posted by NeilB-Phantom

The Yuletide yardsticks article was excellent, both informative and though provoking.  Here's the big question though is it a way of preparing the ground for a big change in the system?

Age related allowances, open/enclosed/tidal corrections?  

Would the PYAG be that "daring," do they need to be to reinvigorate the dinghy scene.  I would say they do, anything to encourage more participation and get those perfectly sound but out dated and hence off rating boats back out on the water.

Great strides have been made with handicap racing over the last few years,  particularly with PYS Online that is allowing the collection of real timed results and we are seeing more dynamic numbers.  We are certainly seeing evidence that this approach is increasing participation in some areas.

IMHO we are now at the watershed of what can be achieved given the use of technology :
  • Age related handicaps -  not just in handicap racing but also re-invigorating OD,  given the older boats a fighting chance

  • Better handling of new designs -  these should be encouraged and treated fairly

  • Water type handicaps -  Great Lakes have shown what can be achieved with a national list for certain clubs,  now need the same for the rest

  • Personal handicaps -  not just re-scoring races based on personal handicaps,  but also golf like handicaps allowing a sailor to see their gains and losses

  • GPS racing -  national league competing against the clock

  • Wind based -  make allowances for extreme conditions.  The recent Draycote Dash in light conditions really favoured the slow boats
Much of this is already happening,  albeit in a very ad-hoc fashion,  SailRacer has technical developments in all these areas.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 10:31am
As Simon says, changes have been happening for several years - Dougal says similar in the article. In terms of "preparing the way" - no - Dougal is certainly not a spokesperson for the RYA!

I'd been hoping Yuletide Yardsticks was going to be about handicapping Xmas dinner - it occurs to me that it is like a pursuit race. The pudding has started already, and sails for 3.5 hours. Soon the spuds will have to start. As we are only sailing a turkey roll, it will only sail for an hour, but those with a proper Big Bird will have to have started some time ago. The veg must be the dinner equivalent of a Musto Skiff, sailing for very little time at all!

Rest of family at church - happy Christmas all!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 5:17pm
I think there needs to be some clarity about what people want from Yardsticks.
Firstly some people simply want a rating for each design, so that your ordinary sailor would get much the same placing regardless of what class he chose.
Other people want a system where the average sailor in each class gets the same average results.
Other people again want systems where allowances are made for individual boats or even individual sailors not being as fast as the best in their class.

There is a belief that flaws in the PY system are resposible for low numbers of people taking part.
I'm not sure I buy that.
If you look at most other sports which have reasonable participation, people seem to be able to come to terms with not personally being world class. Ordinary people run marathons and such like and feel good about 497th, knowing that's a fair result for a middle aged working bloke who only started training last year. People play squash or badminton, don't always win, but still enjoy it and come back next week.
I've sailed open meetings, come way down the fleet and known that that's a fair result for a middle aged bloke sailing on the cheap, with minimal training and mediocre preparation.

The problem of old 505's not being raced is not that world standard brand new 505s are faster, it is that your average Kevin is not motivated to race low budget 505s against his mates after work.
They're possibly out on mountain bikes in the summer, just riding together, one of them might be vaguely training for events, the other might be just enjoying some fresh air and excercise.
People in other sports seem to be much less obsessed with the results, or find it easier to accept they are not at the top level.  In sailing, it's not hard to find yourself racing against olympians, semi-pros or talented people who can beat olympians or semi-pros on their good days. All these people have better kit than you, are fitter and have been practising. So why not feel good about finishing the same race as them and maybe improving a bit?
But you need some ordinary civilians to have a proper race with, boat on boat.

Then there's a significant other group of people who prefer not to directly compare their performance with anyone, so they buy a different class of boat. If they thought they could give the club hotshot a run for his money in a Laser/Solo/MPS, they'd buy one and try. But instead they buy something deliberately obscure and sail on their own terms. I think it's a bit like some motorcyclists not buying the same Honda as their mates, they don't want to be seen as slow, they are travelling to the same place for camaraderie and thrills not  a proper race. They are happy to turn up 5 minutes later having enjoyed the ride. They are slower because they are not trying as hard.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 14 at 6:37pm
Pretty much with your expanded views on this one RS. Simply like sailing, racing is mostly little more than sailing with a purpose, expect of course when I'm against someone who I judge to be on a par with me in a similar boat and even more so at the four or five class travellers I get to. I hardly ever hear any talk of PY rating at my club; we know who should be beating who and when somebody bucks the trend it's big cheers all round.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Pretty much with your expanded views on this one RS. Simply like sailing, racing is mostly little more than sailing with a purpose, expect of course when I'm against someone who I judge to be on a par with me in a similar boat and even more so at the four or five class travellers I get to. I hardly ever hear any talk of PY rating at my club; we know who should be beating who and when somebody bucks the trend it's big cheers all round.

Yes I'm with both of you on this.  And I also worry about drastic changes.  A high risk of killing the patient before the medicine works due to upsetting the equilibrium across all those diverse groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by sargesail

......

Yes I'm with both of you on this.  And I also worry about drastic changes.  A high risk of killing the patient before the medicine works due to upsetting the equilibrium across all those diverse groups.


One of my concerns is that the recent changes are exposing the PY system as a bit arbitrary.
It used to be people accepted the numbers and got on with life, now we have the same boats with quite differents PY's from 3  years ago, sailed by the exact same crews, it's made people realise that this year's number is fundamentally no more valid than last year's. We're a small club, so local adjsutment won't work, because you cannot separate individual skill from design performance.

But what puts stress on the system IMHO is disparate boat types, PY can work fine for 420s vs 470s or wayfarer vs GP14, but say RS100 vs RS600 varies too much with course and windpseed even on one venue.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 10:07pm
Age related handicaps is a interesting one 

what do you do about a modernised boat ?

at what point does a restoration / repair mean a boat loses it's age related  status ( and how much more is this that it needs to be reviewed and re-signed off by a measurer)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 14 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by sargesail

......

Yes I'm with both of you on this.  And I also worry about drastic changes.  A high risk of killing the patient before the medicine works due to upsetting the equilibrium across all those diverse groups.


One of my concerns is that the recent changes are exposing the PY system as a bit arbitrary.
It used to be people accepted the numbers and got on with life, now we have the same boats with quite differents PY's from 3  years ago, sailed by the exact same crews, it's made people realise that this year's number is fundamentally no more valid than last year's. We're a small club, so local adjsutment won't work, because you cannot separate individual skill from design performance.

But what puts stress on the system IMHO is disparate boat types, PY can work fine for 420s vs 470s or wayfarer vs GP14, but say RS100 vs RS600 varies too much with course and windpseed even on one venue.


Yes - but better that than arbitrary non-change!
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