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General Recall & redress
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jdhayward View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 4:04pm
At a recent race during the Hamble Winter Series the 707 fleet were sent off with 3 guns at the start. Assuming this to be a general recall we turned back only to find that the race continued. It turned out the committee had made a mistake and meant to fire 2 guns for an individual recall flag (not for us) - given that we did start again at the back of the fleet we sought redress. Committee agreed that we were disadvantaged but then said we we could get average points for the race based on the series results which meant we could actually get a worse position than we finally ended up with (10/24) which is nonsensical.

If an individual boat infringes a rule during a race they get a penalty based on that race's performance. Is it not the same when a committee makes a mistake??
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 4:52pm
what flags/markers went up.  Sound signals are only to bring your attention.  IMO If the correct flags went up (for boat(s) over) the CTTe are in the clear.
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 5:03pm
The protest committee has to decide what's fairest for all competitors. The logical conclusion would be average or finishing position whichever is better. Although if you did better than your average that would imply you were not seriously disadvantaged by the mistake (required for a RFR to be accepted).
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jdhayward View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jdhayward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 5:32pm
The Individual Recall flag went up though we couldn't see it until we turned back - the committee accepted this and I guess that's why they have said we can seek redress.

Putting the details of this race aside what confused me was the committee's stance that in seeking redress you could end up in a worse position than what you scored on the water (they actually cited a case of a Swan 45 dropping from 2nd to 3rd following a recent hearing) - if it is true and the racing rules allow this to happen then the rules must be fundamentally flawed.
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 5:37pm

So what redress did you ask for? It is best to make it clear what you are hoping for, in my experience.

I don't really follow your argument that the penalty a boat gets is related to its performance in the race. It is normally either a 720, a DSQ or a % time penalty.

 



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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jdhayward View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jdhayward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 05 at 9:31am
Stefan - firstly the redress was simple - we were right on the front of the grid, clear air etc. and as a direct result of the committee we ended up at the back and were clearly disadvantaged which they recognised so we asked for time allowance.

Secondly, as a result of this particular incident its drawn to my attention what must be an anomaly with the rules whereby you can be penalised twice - once on the water and again by the committee even though you are the innocent party and acknowledged as such - lunacy!

Thirdly, your last point - if you take a 720 or a time penalty that by definition directly affects you on the water for that race - how you perform in other races is irrelevant. What the committee proposed was taking into account our performances in other races to determine what redress we were entitled to.

But then again you always much better at the rules than me!

James
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 05 at 10:58am

Well, if we look at the actual rules involved:

64.2 Decisions on Redress

When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to abandon the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before abandoning the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

And

A10 Guidance on Redress

If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

(a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

(b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

(c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justifed redress.

It's going to take quite something to get a protest committee to ignore A10 and go for something other than average points in this situation. I think that in all situations where I've been sitting on a protest committee, and we've awarded redress, we've gone for average points. The difficulty with the third option, -based on your position at the time of the incident- is that it's very hard to tell what that position is just after the start - normally, you would take positions from the last mark rounded. Without that sort of information, it's almost impossible to come up with a sensible number. To say "we had a cracking start, and would have done very well in that race" is all very well, but is a bit speculative...

(P.S - HATE this forum software. Anybody know why it's gone bold -it's not the bold button - and what I can do to change it?)



Edited by Presuming Ed
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jdhayward View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jdhayward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 05 at 11:34am
I was trying to debate this on a broader level (am not trying to get hung up on the details of our particular incident) - whilst A10 is the rule that currently outlines the redress procedure don't you think that it should also state that in any event the position given to the appealing boat should in any event be no worse that what was scored on the water?

Also, I realise the current rules don't allow it but what is wrong with the concept of awarding someone a time allowance ie. 5% - its arbitrary but no more so that the concept of a 5 or 10% penalty that is currently in force? Thoughts...
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 05 at 12:02pm

James, I wasn't trying to argue that you weren't disadvantaged.

You might or might not remember that a couple of years ago I successfully protested the HWS committee. They asked me what redress I wanted and fortunately I had already thought about and had an argument to make, which they accepted. The point I was trying to make is that, while of course it is the judge's decision what redress you get, you are more likely to walk away happy if you have thought in advance about specifically want you want; preferably something that isn't going to upset the rest of the competitors. I've witnessed some other similar protests against the race committee and judges seem very reluctant to throw races out even if the race officer has got it wrong somehow. They are looking for a solution that allows the race to remain valid and leave everyone at least moderately happy that justice was done.

My experience has also been that, A10 quoted above nothwithstanding, judges can be quite flexible in the redress they give.

By the way I had a strong incentive to win that protest, since my crew had told me that if I didn't, I was going for a swim next weekend.

Good luck in the rest of the series.

 
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 05 at 12:41pm

Originally posted by jdhayward

I was trying to debate this on a broader level (am not trying to get hung up on the details of our particular incident) - whilst A10 is the rule that currently outlines the redress procedure don't you think that it should also state that in any event the position given to the appealing boat should in any event be no worse that what was scored on the water?
 The huge advantage of average points is that it's easy - which is why it's so often used. If you look at 64.2, though, the protest committee are actually allowed to award pretty much anything. Not sure what I would do in your position - if you're in time you could appeal, which would actually be very interesting - based on
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made signifcantly worse by(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority...
 Your score has been made worse by the actions of the protest committee. Given that an appeal an the easy way to get the RYA to look at it, I really would be very interesting if you went ahead. Who knows, you might get the rules changed!
 
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