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Downwind By the Lee & an Unstayed Rig

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boatshed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Downwind By the Lee & an Unstayed Rig
    Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 10:16am
I post this picture below of a Finn stolen from the Worlds Flickr site which shows the boom out far more than 90 deg !   I know the Finns can pump freely above 10 knots and maybe this is what is going on ;  the helm has eased off a big armful of main and is just about to aggressively haul it in again.

But my first question for 'non pumping classes' with similar rigs, is this :  Is the quickest way down wind, in a medium breeze, to free off the main well beyond 90 deg and then keep bearing off  ? 

If so, I can't help thinking this will utterly destabilise the boat with massive lurches to windward which will then require the helm to make  correspondingly aggressive boom adjustments just to stay upright. 

My second question is:  In non-pumping classes, at what point does trying to stay upright,  by constant boom adjustment,  start to become pumping  ?  






Edited by boatshed - 26 Jul 13 at 10:16am
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 10:33am
we were always taught in Oppies to get that boom out past 90 in light winds- there was some diagram on a training course I attended where I first saw the acronym VMG and in essence they were trying to get us to start sailing angles and look shifts and pressure.... a moot point for those of us who spent downwind bailing out with our head in the boat, or at best took a transit on a sheep to stop 'sailing bananas' to the mark.

I have no idea if that is the current schooling for Oppy/Laser kids.... but it looks fast in that photo.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 10:41am


these Europes are doing much the same at a training day at Hunts.  Those that allowed the boom well forward were significantly faster.  Some sailors were not entirely comfortable with this at first, but it is a balancing act that can be mastered and does pay dividends.   Pumping when it's legal is also a skill to be mastered and as the Finns show, requires considerable agility to do it effectively and safely!
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote robin34024 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 10:45am
in the toppers, we always aimed to spend most of the time with the boom maybe 10-20 degreed forward of the mast with barely any kicker on. if you think about it, you reverse the airflow of the sail, and make what is actually the leech, the luff and the mast becomes the leech. in a topper at least, this actually helped stabilize the boat, as you hadn't got a bouncy leech all the time, and of course, it reduced the risk of Chinese gybes. probably took its toll in the number of death rolls though :/
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 11:12am
We recently had a training day from mr Goodison. He suggested the boom should not go beyond 90, but the kicker should be off so the sail does. He also stressed that looking for the puff and steering to get in it and stay in it for as long as possible was the real key to going down the run fast. We also talked about angles which should increase in lighter winds, and that sometimes a gybe may be better than by the lea to stay in the puff.
This is not the first time I had been given the same advice, another Olympic coach, swiss team, who in fact used to be a Hunts member had also mentioned the 90 degree rule.
I now tend to stick to this, as do most of the front few in the laser fleet at Rutland.

Looking at the picture above. I would like to see the next few in a series as I wonder if he is about to gybe.

Andy

Edited by andymck - 26 Jul 13 at 11:18am
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PeterV View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:13pm
Why not just practice during a club race?  I find on flat water I can sail my Finn astonishly far by the lee and it's usually fast. but you do need to be able to cope with the amount of windward heel generated.  Tactically it's a very useful ploy when sailing in a mixed fleet, because you can stay on starboard when all the stayed boats have to be on port.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MattHarris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by PeterV

... because you can stay on starboard when all the stayed boats have to be on port.
 
We queried this with an RYA judge who did a talk at the club a few years back.  We'd had this issue with lasers sailing heavily by the lee into marks just to push people out of the way.  Apparently port/starboard is based on the direction the wind travels across the deck not which side the boom is on.  With this in mind windward boat would be at play in the situation you describe rather than port/starboard...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:27pm
I'd be interested to see that theory tested in a protest room Matt.... and what wind are we talking about, the wind can bend, skew, be offset with apparent wind from momentum.... the side the boom on, I reckon, would be the deciding factor for most PCs.
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:53pm
According to the RRS Definitions, your judge is wrong.......


Leeward and Windward:   A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when 
she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the 
lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail 
lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack
overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The 
other is the windward boat.

Tack, Starboard  or  Port:   A boat is on the  tack,  starboard or  port, 
corresponding to her windward side.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:55pm
Has to be, imagine the chaos otherwise when two boats are sailing parallel courses with their booms on different sides!
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