Luffing rights - Proper Course - 2013 rule???

'proper course'

   Say 2 boats are on a reach (90 degrees to wind say), boat behind slightly faster wants to overtake boat in front.  

1) Can the boat behind overtake to leeward and luff the windward boat above the "proper course"?

2) If the boat behind passes to windward, can the leeward (boat being overtaken) luff above their "proper course"?

I think I know the answers, but won't write them here so as not to bias responses!  I think there were some subtle changes in the 2013 rules.

What does everyone here thing?

Thanks!

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ds797 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 28 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 11	Post Options Post Reply Quote ds797 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Luffing rights - Proper Course - 2013 rule??? Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 12:34pm
	Say 2 boats are on a reach (90 degrees to wind say), boat behind slightly faster wants to overtake boat in front. 1) Can the boat behind overtake to leeward and luff the windward boat above the "proper course"? 2) If the boat behind passes to windward, can the leeward (boat being overtaken) luff above their "proper course"? I think I know the answers, but won't write them here so as not to bias responses! I think there were some subtle changes in the 2013 rules. What does everyone here thing? Thanks!

RS400atC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011	Post Options Post Reply Quote RS400atC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 3:21pm
	I don't see the vertical bar in the margin which would indicate a change. The key is that the overlap must start while the leeward boat is withing two hull lengths of the other for any restriction on proper course to apply. And it is the leeward boat's proper course that matters, this may be much higher than the windward boat's, for instance if the leeward boat is asymmetric .... http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20132016StudyVersion-%5B13380%5D.pdf

ds797 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 28 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 11	Post Options Post Reply Quote ds797 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 4:00pm
	Hi RS...... sorry thats confused me more than I was before.... please can you expand?

Andymac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852	Post Options Post Reply Quote Andymac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 5:15pm
	In answer to your original question, 1) Depends; YES, [In the absence of any other constraining factors] if the leeward overtaking boat established the overlap with a lateral seperation of more than 2 boat lengths* (larger of the 2 boats if mixed handicap). NO, if the separation was less than 2 boat lengths. 2)Yes. As RS says, one boats 'proper course'* can be very different to another boat. Take a Laser 1 and an RS200 (Assymetric) sailing a dead downwind leg; the Laser would expect to sail much deeper than the RS200. It is the leeward boats 'proper course' which is the crux of the matter. As others have said before, the key to understanding the rules is to first learn the definitions.

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 5:38pm
	Another quick question on the topic... If an overlap is established from behind, with no luffing rights (we shall assume the proper course of both boats is the same), and then the leeward boat gybes and then gybes back, does she then gain luffing rights, as she has become leeward boat through different means? Also, if 2 boats go round the mark overlapped, and then both gybe, does the new leeward boat have luffing rights?
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 5:59pm
	I would avoid using the phrase 'overtake'. It used to be in the rules, but isn't any longer (although it is in the appendix for 'Expression competition' in windsurfing). 17 says 'if a boat clear astern becomes overlapped withing two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance' which is the bit we are focusing on. So rather than overtaking, we are thinking of the rear boat being 'clear astern' in which case either boat can do what they like in terms course (subject to other boats and rule burden). Then we move to the state of being overlapped. If the boats are within two boat lengths (laterally) of each other then the proper course constraint applies as well as the 'room to keep clear' constraints. If you are further away (laterally) when the overlap is gained then you only have the 'room to keep clear' constraints. If you overlap to windward from clear astern then the leeward boat only has the 'room to keep clear' constraints. Or, to put it another way... what they said... As Andymac says, the definitions are the key to the rules
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 6:02pm
	It would appear I took so long writing that someone wrote something else in between The two gybes approach would indeed release you of the proper course obligations. As to the mark rounding situation I would say that you would be allowed to luff above proper course, subject to the 'room to keep clear'
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

andymck Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397	Post Options Post Reply Quote andymck Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 6:05pm
	As long as they are overlapped, and within 2 boat lengths laterally. Yes. Check the interpretation of gybing as well. A boat sailing by the lee may gybe and gybe back simultaneously due to top batten flicking accross and back again. I have seen a few breaks of 17 when going round a leeward mark they have got bow out and about a boat length and a half to leeward, having come from behind, they throw in a tack. Then call starboard. 17 says they have to go behind. Most seem to think it is rule 13 that is in force, even so, probably too close to tack. Edited by andymck - 17 Jun 13 at 1:40am
	Andy Mck

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 6:07pm
	I should add the caveats about mark-room and all that sort of thing as well, I'll change it to: As to the mark rounding situation I would say that you would be allowed to luff above proper course, subject to the 'room to keep clear' and any other rules in force relating to the mark rounding (Mark Room, that sort of thing)
	Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"

sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jun 13 at 9:20pm
	Think I'll let Brass or Gordon deal with some of the wrongness here....too tired after some good sailing.